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Old 04-17-2018, 06:14 PM
Stanley82

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which trust is best?



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I am about to buy 2 suppressors (1 rimfire and 1 centerfire)and researching trusts right now and wondering if the traditional type trust from a local lawyer is better or are most people now using the one shot online trust form silencer shop? I would add my wife as a successor trustee and my kids as beneficiaries since the oldest is only 11. I called silencer shop and the guy I spoke with was less than helpful, seemed like he only wanted to sell me a suppressor and was less interested in explaining the process and to all you dead air fans (which is what I am getting) he said their technology is old and outdated which was a first to me since the mask gets many good reviews on here as well as other sites.
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  #2  
Old 04-18-2018, 02:40 AM
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First, Why do you want to go the trust route?

The two big reasons for a trust were pretty much negated by ATF letter 41P, those being the elimination of required signature by Chief LEO in your county/city and what happens to your NFA items when you die.
1) Now your chief LEO only needs to be notified, he does not sign and cannot deny you (for whatever reason, this was a big problem before as it was personal descretion on the CLEO if he wanted you to have a can, politics).
2) There is now a clear path of succession of possession for the NFA item ownership upon death of owner--form 5 (free) to family relative or estate can dispose/sell item with proper transfer protocols.

I used to use a trust, but my last can I went the individual route. New rules require photos/fingerprints and background checks for everybody on the trust vs only you if you go individual. Trust are also taking a few months longer to be approved as opposed to individual applications being a few months shorter wait time. ONLY advantage of a trust right now is that trustees can have the NFA item in their possession without you being around, how often is that going to happen? In my case, never. You're right about the kids, NFA is a 21+ years old game, no minors can be trustees.

NFA dealer in my area literally spent 20 minutes for photos and fingerprints and did all the paperwork to mail in to ATF for $30. Easiest NFA transaction I've had to date.

Silencershop is in the business of selling things, one shot trust are a quick add-on item. They have it down pat, but it is not required. A decent NFA dealer worth his salt will know this and be able to take care of you himself. A lot of shops have partnered with silencershop with the kiosk selling method, but not all of them are truly knowledgeable about the NFA process, instead letting silencershop do all the heavy lifting and paperwork for the most part. Unless you are in the state of Texas, silencershop will have to transfer the cans via a form 3 to your dealer and that just adds more time before you get your tax stamp on a form 4 from the ATF. They do make it easy to buy from them though.

As to Dead Air being "old tech", well they work and are a robustly built can made from all stainless or titanium (rifle and rimfire cans, not sure of pistol). Dead Air founder is also a former founder of silencerco. Do some more research, Dead Air, TBAC, Q, Rugged and even silencerco are all thought pretty highly of. I could see that accusation having traction with AAC or Gemtech (research GEMTAX), but not the top companies.
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Old 04-18-2018, 06:51 AM
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That was a very good post indeed Wolfshoon, I was unaware of the Form 5.
https://www.atf.gov/firearms/docs/fo...53205/download

I went with a family trust several years ago specifically so I could name my wife and not have to worry about her becoming an insta-felon if/when I croak. Apparently thats not a worry any more for new purchasers (assuming their heirs know about the form and complete it.)

Neat!

Frank
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Old 04-18-2018, 07:04 AM
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Wish my NFA guy only charged $30!!
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Old 04-18-2018, 08:10 AM
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So what is the total cost of buying a can, excluding can itself?
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Old 04-18-2018, 10:11 AM
Stanley82

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Wolfshoon thank you for the reply and info. The reason I want a trust is because everyone I have talked to about the process including dealers and a lawyer says that I need a trust to be able to legally pass ownership down to my kids when I die. Nobody mentioned the form 5 you did. If I understand you correctly I would still need a trust of some sort if I wanted to let my kids (when of age) use the suppressors without me with them?
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Old 04-18-2018, 10:56 AM
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which trust is best?

Quote:
Originally Posted by LtCrunch View Post
That was a very good post indeed Wolfshoon, I was unaware of the Form 5.
https://www.atf.gov/firearms/docs/fo...53205/download

I went with a family trust several years ago specifically so I could name my wife and not have to worry about her becoming an insta-felon if/when I croak. Apparently thats not a worry any more for new purchasers (assuming their heirs know about the form and complete it.)

Neat!

Frank


Get a copy of the form5 and put it with your trust.

Iíll be getting two or three more .22 cans on my trust just for the reason of portability by my trusties ďchildren, wife , MotherĒ.

I will also be buying a couple without the trust.

Hers the part he didnít tell you about.

Currently if you buy all your nfa items on a trust. Latter down the road you can add whom ever to the trust after the purchase with out the cards/pictures or background checks just as before the change. The fingerprint cards/photo are only require at time of purchase of the nfa item/s.

When itís done and said Iíll have 4 or 5 .22 cans and 2 centerfire cans.

"The biggest communication problem is we don't listen to understand, we listen to reply"

Last edited by PEASHOOTER67; 04-18-2018 at 11:00 AM.
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Old 04-18-2018, 04:15 PM
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I used Gun Trust Lawyer, David M. Goldman website. My application sailed through ATF. I paid for ATF application submittal via a bank trust checking account.
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Old 04-18-2018, 04:39 PM
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Don't know a lot about trusts, but the Dead Air Mask is awesome. Would definitely recommend. Maybe by "old technology" they mean K baffles as opposed to the new monocore ones?

I bought mine through Silencer Shop, it was pretty easy, and I'd go that way again. It cost the can + 200 bucks for the stamp.
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Old 04-18-2018, 05:05 PM
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I've done 3 now, all for suppressors with a trust. I used 199 trust and haven't had an issue. For those that say its not needed and do the individual route, they couldn't be more wrong. You can have beneficiaries and co-trustees, etc that allow OTHERS to transport and shoot and possibly inherit your NFA items. An individual purchase does not allow for that.
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Old 04-18-2018, 05:34 PM
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Bought a Sparrow yesterday. Prints, photos, everything was taken care of at the LGS, NO Charge. Took about an hour. Got an email this morning to sign Transfer and Registration form and confirmation email this afternoon that all was good. I went the individual route because they said there was a shorter wait time, 4-6 months. They told me Form 6 for tax free transfer after my passing.
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Old 04-18-2018, 10:47 PM
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My first two and only so far can purchases were post 41f. I still felt the trust was the right option. I have a room mate. When these cans eventually get out of NFA jail I have to consider my room mate should something happen to me. By having him on the trust once the cans are in hand I can leave the property and not leave him behind with two NFA items that are not registered to him. Technically if they really wanted to push the issue that could be considered an illegal transfer. Of course they are in my safe but better safe than sorry. The bonus if something god forbid should happen to me he is good to go and then can have the trust amended to remove me accordingly. I dont have kids, never married and my sis or Dad could give two you know what's about my gun stuff. My room mate buddy will get all of my stuff anyway so it made sense for the NFA items. If you don't care what happens to your stuff after your gone then go the individual route. Sure your next of kin have avenues to get everything transferred into their name but why burden someone who is grieving and probably got more than enough other stuff on their plate at a time like that? If you have a well drawn up trust that handles everything ahead of time that is one less hassle for your loved ones to to have to deal with during an estate probate.

BTW get the Mask. I did. It sounds great, robustly built, couldn't be happier. Maybe they have an abundance of some other stuff and are just trying to steer people into buying old excess stock? I find it curious whomever you talked to shot it down. The Mask has little if any first round pop and if you choose to get one you won't regret it. What centerfire can are you considering?

Last edited by jgwills; 04-18-2018 at 10:59 PM.
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Old 04-18-2018, 10:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Scroder View Post
For those that say its not needed and do the individual route, they couldn't be more wrong. You can have beneficiaries and co-trustees, etc that allow OTHERS to transport and shoot and possibly inherit your NFA items. An individual purchase does not allow for that.
Agreed that a individual filed tax stamp does not allow for others to have your NFA item without you present. I stated that in my post. However, only trustees in a trust are allowed NFA item possession without the owner present, beneficiaries are inheritors, not trustees (unless they are also named as trustees, a good trust should do that, not all do).

ATF Letter 41p absolutely did define successorship of NFA items when an individual dies. This was a grey area prior to that letter.

Quote:
Hers the part he didnít tell you about.

Currently if you buy all your nfa items on a trust. Latter down the road you can add whom ever to the trust after the purchase with out the cards/pictures or background checks just as before the change. The fingerprint cards/photo are only require at time of purchase of the nfa item/s.
ATF did want the power to lock a trust(make it non-revocable), this ran afoul of one of the constitutional amendments, they either lost or gave up trying to do that, cant remember which one off the top of my head, but it didn't go through. They wanted to do that for exactly the reason you stated.

You are right in that fingerprints/photos are only required at the time of purchase, but if you add items later to the trust everybody in it at that time has to do fingerprints/photos.

Yes, you can later amend a revocable trust to include new trustees, inheritors, etc., adding people that are no longer minors is a primary usage of that feature. Your potential problem is you have to do it legally per the laws of your state (some states require the trust to be registered with the state, others dont) In my case this will require my lawyer to amend my trust for $300, but no state registration. The NFA game isnt hard, but it is unforgiving of mistakes and those mistakes have HUGE PENALTIES. Prison time or fines aren't worth the paperwork mistake to me. I spent the better part of a grand and about 4 hours with my lawyer for my trust and about 20 more hours filing paperwork and notarizing forms with trustees. I still consider it money well spent. Playing with NFA items is a lot of fun, doing NFA paperwork is not. I will still go the individual route in the future if I get another NFA item.
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Old 04-18-2018, 11:06 PM
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One other item I forgot about: insurance


If your house burns down and takes all your NFA items with it, then:

1) As and individual tax stamp holder, your insurance should cover it as personal property.


2) As a trust, usually trust items are not covered under homeowners insurance. Trust items typically need separate insurance.


Double check your insurance anyway, lots of them limit firearm related components to $2500 or less, or not at all. I am shopping USAA, Eastern and NRA endorsed insurance companies at the moment
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Old 04-18-2018, 11:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stanley82 View Post
If I understand you correctly I would still need a trust of some sort if I wanted to let my kids (when of age) use the suppressors without me with them?
In this case, a trust has a benefit over the individual. Yes, a trust allows trustees to use the NFA item without the owner around.

Dont get me wrong, trusts have their uses and in this case you may be better served using one. Just make sure to properly amend the trust when they turn 21, it's all a paperwork push for the office cubicle government worker
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