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Old 05-22-2019, 02:36 PM
squirrel1 is online now
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Closer look at Hm2 round (CCI vmax 17 grain) and Hornady vmax 17 grain



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Ok.
I got curious and broke down a couple cci rounds.
First let me say weighing cci and Hornady hm2 with the 17 grain vmax. Seems overall weights will come in between 29.4 grains and 29.9 grains.
So some folks may be curious as to exaclty what is different between different weighing cartridges from the same box. I should also mention I have weighed several spent Hornady cartridges and spent case weight seems is real consistent. Most deviation noted was a few weight .1 grain heavier.

Ok for this experiment I only broke down 2 cci cartridges one weight overall 29.4 grains the other weighing 29.9 grains on my scales.

Here is the breakdown of each cartridge with each component weighed.

First the 29.4 grainer cartridge.
Bullet weighed 17.1 grains.
Case + powder + primer weighed 12.3 grains
Powder weighed 2.7 grains
Case + primer with powder removed 9.6 grains

Next the cartridge weighing 29.9 grains
Bullet weighed 17.0 grains
Case + powder+ primer weighed 12.9 grains
Powder weighed 2.9 grains
Case + primer with powder removed weighed 9.9 grains

My scales calibrated and supposed to be accurate to .1 grains.

So sorting ammo may indeed yield better results in the field group wise especially as distance grows. Based on just these 2 cartridges weights and breakdown.

I may break down a few more cartridges weighing overall 29.9 grains.
There are few of these per box of 50 it seems. See if case weight is up on these like the one above. And the powder weight.

Might turn out culling just these might help without sacrifice too many cartridges and keep group potential odds wise up.

Will break down about 3 more weighing 29.9 both cci and Hornady and see the deal.
Will post here.
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Last edited by squirrel1; 05-22-2019 at 03:27 PM.
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Old 05-22-2019, 02:53 PM
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Sorting .17 rimfires is as useless as it is with .22LRs. You can't control any of the variables by weighing rounds.
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Old 05-22-2019, 03:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IHMSA80x80 View Post
Sorting .17 rimfires is as useless as it is with .22LRs. You can't control any of the variables by weighing rounds.
I am not trying to control anything.
Just give the facts as they are weighed out.

Last edited by squirrel1; 05-22-2019 at 03:26 PM.
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Old 05-22-2019, 03:23 PM
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More data.
After talking apart 6 each of the Hornady and cci weighing 29.9 grains overall.
The numbers reflecting half of the additional weight approx is due to heavier case + priming compound. Not the bullet. Maybe a tad toward power weight (small).
I can’t tell which it is the priming compound or the brass as I am not going to put a deformed case in my chamber and fire and then weigh.

The Hornady spent brass seems to be more consistent weight wise vs cci (spent) I checked.

I ain’t going to take apart a load of these.

If a person has a gun that shoots say cci well and sorted and chronied say the cci and grouped the 29.8 and 29.9 together. And compared these as far as speed average to the rest of the cartridges in a box. If these heavier ones are on average flying faster. Then a person may indeed cull and improve groups somewhat. I have a chrony somewhere. Haven’t used in years.
May not be the case though and could be a waste of time.
All Hornady and cci I have weighed with 17 grain vmax weigh between 29.4 and 29.9 grains.

All it cost a person is one box of ammo, chrony and some time.
I would ‘t Want to do this though in gun that doesn’t shoot the ammo being tested well.

Last edited by squirrel1; 05-22-2019 at 03:39 PM.
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Old 05-23-2019, 01:42 PM
Gmww
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Maybe you already did this but. It would be interesting to fire two of the empty cases that were taken apart to see what the weight fluctuation would be after the primers were ignited. Weight empty unfired and then weigh empty fired. I'm not suggesting it would adversely effect accuracy but I'm sort of curious.
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Old 05-23-2019, 02:31 PM
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Originally Posted by Gmww View Post
Maybe you already did this but. It would be interesting to fire two of the empty cases that were taken apart to see what the weight fluctuation would be after the primers were ignited. Weight empty unfired and then weigh empty fired. I'm not suggesting it would adversely effect accuracy but I'm sort of curious.
I would do but i am deforming cases taking the cartridge apart. So I wonít put a deformed case in chamber. Could be BAD!!
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Old 05-23-2019, 04:47 PM
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I should have said you're not going to improve the accuracy by weighing rounds.
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Old 05-23-2019, 07:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IHMSA80x80 View Post
I should have said you're not going to improve the accuracy by weighing rounds.
Take a look in CZ subforum. Shot the rifle loads today at a lasered 100 yards. I saw a tendency based on ammo overall weight.
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Old 06-09-2019, 07:24 PM
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More Data

Hi Folks!

I've always been a sorting skeptic, but I've grown frustrated with 17 Mach 2 and its occasional tendency to throw the occasional inexplicable flyer. So ...

On a Saturday night when I had absolutely nothing better to do, I took a half a box (25 cartridges) of CCC Vmax in 17 Mach 2. On my RCBS digital scale, they came in at:

21 cartridges @ 29.7 grains
22 cartridges @ 29.8 grains
2 cartridges @ 29.9 grains

Then, this morning, I shot those for groups of five cartridges at 50 yards. Conditions were not ideal, with light winds, but not bad either. The results?

29.7 grains Group 1 = 0.565 inches CTC
29.7 grains Group 2 = 0.508 inches CTC

29.8 grains Group 1 = 0.674 inches CTC
29.8 grains Group 2 = 0.689 inches CTC

And then, just for giggles, I shot the two 29.9 grain cartridges. The result? 0.888 inches CTC

I am fully aware of the small sample size here, and I have no doubt that the wind had an effect on the groups.

Still, between squirrel1's data and mine, my curiosity is sufficiently engaged to find a more accurate scale and do some more testing.

Enjoy!
Dave
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Old 06-10-2019, 07:04 PM
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Take a close look at the box of hm2.
Find the manufacturer date code.
Interesting, eh? Both the Hornady and the CCI use the same code system.
That's due to the fact that it all comes from the same machines
using the same components, primer and powder. All the same.
Only differences are tip color, head stamps and labels.
All the 17 hm2 is CCI production. Hornady does not have the facilities to produce 17 hm2.
They just relabeled CCI production. The only quality differences
are those caused by that days production on the line.
Same technicians, same machines, same components from the same factory.
The label means nothing. It's all CCI rimfire ammo.
All they make is hunting ammo. Not precision target rounds.

Don't believe me? Contact CCI customer service.
Ask to talk to senior staff. Be an annoying customer.

Last edited by jaia; 06-10-2019 at 07:10 PM.
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Old 06-10-2019, 07:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jaia View Post
The label means nothing. It's all CCI rimfire ammo.
All they make is hunting ammo. Not precision target rounds.

Don't believe me?
Oh, I believe you. Thatís why Iím going through these gyrations. In 22 LR, we can just go out and buy a top grade ammo if weíre looking for consistency/accuracy.

But because all 17hm2 is essentially the same, the only option is to experiment.

Enjoy!
Dave
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Old 06-10-2019, 10:44 PM
squirrel1 is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jaia View Post
Take a close look at the box of hm2.
Find the manufacturer date code.
Interesting, eh? Both the Hornady and the CCI use the same code system.
That's due to the fact that it all comes from the same machines
using the same components, primer and powder. All the same.
Only differences are tip color, head stamps and labels.
All the 17 hm2 is CCI production. Hornady does not have the facilities to produce 17 hm2.
They just relabeled CCI production. The only quality differences
are those caused by that days production on the line.
Same technicians, same machines, same components from the same factory.
The label means nothing. It's all CCI rimfire ammo.
All they make is hunting ammo. Not precision target rounds.

Don't believe me? Contact CCI customer service.
Ask to talk to senior staff. Be an annoying customer.
You say all the same.
There is a speed difference though. (According to labeling)
Is the same propellant used in both??
Or less propellant of the same used in hornady?
Seems my lilja barrel likes the cci better for some reason.
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Old 06-11-2019, 05:46 AM
jaia
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Muzzle velocity on the label is a calculated value.
In the real world it's all CCI ammo made from the same brass,
same bullets, same primer, same powder on the same machines
by the same technicians at the same factory. Swap out the headstamps dies
and you have Hornady, swap them again you have CCI. Same boxes
different labels. The variations in results are due to the date of manufacture.
CCI does not use the quality control needed to produce competition grade rimfire ammo.
It's all intended for hunting or sport, not for serious, repeatable sub moa paper punching.
Watch the factory tour video. Pay attention to the methods used in transporting components
and how the primer is measured and applied. CCI produces inexpensive rimfire ammo
and relabels it under a variety of brand names. That applies to 22lr, 22wmr, 17 hmr and 17 hm2.

Ask CCI directly.... I did, after reading so many contradictory opinions regarding the manufacture.

Last edited by jaia; 06-11-2019 at 05:56 AM.
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Old 06-11-2019, 01:26 PM
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You can get case only weights on pulled bullet cases by pointing the case mouth away from you and scratching the primer with something like a bent paper clip. It's like a childs cap gun sound. Be sure all powder is emptied first.
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Old 06-11-2019, 04:29 PM
Gmww
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jaia View Post
Don't believe me? Contact CCI customer service.
Ask to talk to senior staff. Be an annoying customer.

LOL I was that annoying customer. The answer I got back was that the recipe's are different. I had the exact quote before when I posted it some time ago.


Edit: here's my old post.

https://www.rimfirecentral.com/forum...cci+hm2&page=2

"Each of these loads are built to the specifications that are set by CCI or Hornady so they are not necessarily going to be identical."

Last edited by Gmww; 06-11-2019 at 04:38 PM.
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