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  #1  
Old 01-14-2010, 07:02 PM
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eTrigger Adjustable Electronic Trigger System



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After a long time developing and refining the design, the electronic trigger is nearly complete. As readers of the RFC forums may already know, I started working on a 10-22 electronic trigger primarily as a means to enable high-quality bullpup stocks with excellent triggers.

(https://www.rimfirecentral.com/forums...d.php?t=289809)

Based on feedback from the RFC members, I decided to redesign the trigger so that the same basic parts could also be used with standard gunstocks.

The result is the first electronic trigger system for the 10-22 platform, that is easily adjustable for pull weight and travel by the user, with no gunsmithing, no special tools, no polishing, no stoning, and no cursing. The user simply removes a few screws, changes the springs on the trigger switch bar, and the result is a predictable trigger pull. The standard model will come with a set of springs that allows the user to choose any pull weight from 2.25oz (65 grams) on up to 3.55lbs (1.575kg). Higher and lower pull weights can be achieved with an optional spring set. Best of all, this tuning can be done while at the range, without taking the action out of the receiver or the receiver out of the stock. You don't have to commit to a certain pull weight before you get the trigger, or even before you head to the range. The position of the trigger shoe surface is also adjustable.

All of the crucial action parts (hammer, springs, sear, disconnector, pins, mag latch plunger) are factory Ruger, so future parts availability shouldn't be a problem, either.





If you are interested in following the prototype testing and range reports, please subscribe to this thread. Depending upon the level of interest, a limited production run may be planned in the very near future. This style of trigger is very successful in Olympic rapid fire pistol, and now, it will be available for 10-22 shooters too.
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  #2  
Old 01-15-2010, 03:49 PM
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For those who like to see parts in progress:

Cover - Trigger Bar - Housing
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  #3  
Old 01-15-2010, 04:37 PM
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Just looking.

It looks like some of the stuff under the trigger assembly could be moved into the stock area with a wire feed.

I love to see people thinking and working on stuff.

Thanks for the post.

I wished the original trigger was not so much crap..........oh well it's great for the aftermarket crowd.

Your friend, Chuckersgun.
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Old 01-15-2010, 05:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chuckersgun View Post
Just looking.

It looks like some of the stuff under the trigger assembly could be moved into the stock area with a wire feed.

I love to see people thinking and working on stuff.

Thanks for the post.

I wished the original trigger was not so much crap..........oh well it's great for the aftermarket crowd.

Your friend, Chuckersgun.
Chucker,
That may come down the road, but for now the design goal is for a drop in replacement.
Regards, Ray
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  #5  
Old 01-15-2010, 05:51 PM
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hiding the electronics in the stock

Chucker, that is certainly an option with this setup. The upper half and lower half are modular, and if someone wanted to make their own switch design, they could use the upper half (the mechanical action) and the electronic guts as well. You could mill out a pocket in the side of a stock to house the electronics, sort of like the back of an electric guitar.

In a way, the electronics will be hidden in the stock if you end up using this to build a bullpup.
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  #6  
Old 01-15-2010, 05:57 PM
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Will it work manually after the battery dies ?
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  #7  
Old 01-15-2010, 06:47 PM
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battery life

The trigger as configured will not work with a completely dead battery, there is no manual connector.

The battery life is approx 40,000 firings on a full alkaline 9V, and you can leave the battery in the trigger for well over a year without it going dead. The baseline current draw is 30 microamps when it is sitting there with the cap charged.

As the battery gets weaker, the "refresh rate" slows which limits the maximum rate of fire, so if you pull the trigger and nothing happens, you can wait a second and try again and get the shot. It doesn't just stop working cold turkey. It won't stop working unexpectedly.

If you notice that the maximum shot rate is too sluggish for your liking, it's time to change the battery. However, I have fired it on 9V that are "dead to the world" in that their voltage has dropped down to the 6-7V range. An average shooter could power it with the batteries they remove from smoke detectors every six months as recommended, since those batteries are still plenty-full for shooting purposes.
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  #8  
Old 01-27-2010, 04:29 PM
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This is a neat concept but allow me to play devil's advocate here. What would it take to change the circuitry so that a shooter could fire multiple shots with a single pull of the trigger? This is something that has to be addressed since the ATF would certainly ask about it. Not only would they ask about it but, in light of recent events, they might devise some way to accomplish it - to your detriment.
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Old 01-27-2010, 04:58 PM
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what would it take?

It would take the same sort of illegal changes to the legal circuitry that would enable any electronic triggered semiauto to fire in an automatic fashion.

The best I can do is spell out that the user shouldn't undertake any changes unless they feel that they understand the law and the rulings well enough to risk prison time over it (which I don't personally feel myself).

I understand the fear here. Part of this relates to some of the controversial actions by the ATF tech branch, where they are alleged to have had a talented gunsmith modify confiscated guns to the point that they no longer function the way they did when they were supposedly in violation of the law, and then used data following the alleged modifications as proof in court.

HOWEVER,

The Pardini SP1-E is a legal gun in the good old USA.

The Match Guns MG2E is a legal gun in the good old USA.

These are not "top secret" guns that the ATF has never heard of. They are high-profile firearms, that have won national and international competition due to their outstanding triggers and rapid-fire performance.

Could a moderately skilled individual convert them to fire in an illegal manner. Yes. There are infinitely many ways to do that.

Similarly, there are infinitely many ways to convert any Ruger 10-22 to fire in an illegal automatic manner. A Pardini or a Match Gun could also be converted, and you could get everything you would need to do it in most towns in America. You could do it by modifying the metal parts or the electronic parts or both. Actually, you can turn a regular 10-22 into an illegal electronic machine gun with a cordless drill, a hole-saw bit, and a vise. If you did that, you would go to jail, probably after shooting your own foot off.

The legal term "readily restorable" does not mean "easy to convert given adequate time, tools, and knowledge" - If it did, no gun would be legal, especially semiautos that are automatic rifles but for a few quick cuts on a grinder wheel. If that were what the law meant, it would be illegal to own a 10-22 AND sandpaper. Similarly, you would have "constructive possession" of an SBR if you owned and possessed a 10-22 and a Charger at the same time, since you could swap the barrels with an allen wrench.

People should be cautious about the law, and should not modify a gun trying to "skirt" the law or bend the rules. If that is your intent, you will probably end up breaking the law, and for what?

I guarantee that beyond a certain rate of fire, all shooters lose accuracy. Automatic fire is both illegal and foolish. It is a ticket to prison and a waste of ammo. If you like automatic fire, buy a paintball gun and stay away from real ones. Automatic fire is, more or less, a way to turn money into noise.

We shouldn't be paranoid about the law either. I encourage anyone who is worried to ask ATF about electronic semiautos, especially if you are unconvinced by the examples of the olympic target pistols.

My design would take enough modification to convert to auto that a person couldn't do it by accident. If someone were to do that, they would be breaking the law. Similarly, if you modify your Ruger mechanically and it ends up auto-firing, you are breaking the law.

The law is what it is. If people have a problem with that, they should talk to their congressmen and elected representatives, because the gun laws we have were written by people we elect.

Last edited by BulZi; 01-28-2010 at 12:08 PM.
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  #10  
Old 01-27-2010, 05:08 PM
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Old forum posts

Following along the lines of the last post, below, I will quote an old forum from another website: http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/s...=150968&page=3

"____________________
For this reason, I think that the ATF would consider any semiautomatic gun with an electronically-controlled fire control group to be a machinegun, just as I think that they presently consider any semiautomatic gun with an electrical circuit between the trigger and primer to be one. I seem to recall reading somewhere that ATF very carefully scrutinized the unsuccessful ETronix system, and only allowed it to be sold because it was used in bolt-action rifles. Thus, hacking the electronics wouldn't have allowed semi-automatic or fully-automatic firing, because the bolt still needed to be manipulated manually for each shot.

On the other hand, it is my impression (I don't have any citations on this) that if you attach a solenoid to the trigger of a semi-auto gun, it's automatically considered to be a machinegun by ATF. Thus, things like installing a remote firing solenoid (as used in some aircraft applications) onto a semi-auto beltfed gun would be considered to be manufacturing a machinegun, even without the presence of a circuit to pulse the solenoid when a trigger/switch is pulled.
________________________


"I think...I seem to recall...It is my impression..." That guy didn't know what he was talking about. He was just speculating based on faulty assumptions, and making things up. The Pardini and Match Gun MG2E are both semiauto. They both have solenoid-tripped sears with electronic microswitches. They are both one-shot-one-pull with the identical control behavior of any semiauto, and no automatic firing capability. They could be "hacked" just like any gun, and this "hacking" would be just as illegal as making a Tommy Gun or an M-16. That is to say, very illegal. And yet, if you own them and don't try to modify them for automatic fire, you are legally just fine. They are just like any other gun, nothing magical about having an electronic semiautomatic.

Here is another such forum thread: http://www.thehighroad.org/archive/i.../t-275582.html
________
CypherNinjaMay 7, 2007, 12:50 PM
I don't have enough time to dig anything up right now, but I'm VERY sure that any sort of electronic trigger on a semi-auto falls under the "readily convertible" guidelines. And even if it wasn't, if the BATFE ever heard of someone actually doing it, it would take all of two seconds for them to decide it was and arrest the guy.All the manually operated stuff should be fine (bolt actions, break actions, falling blocks, etc.), but then again shoelaces and open-bolt single shots are machine guns according to the BATFE.
________


This guy was "VERY sure" even though he didn't "have enough time to dig anything up right now" in terms of documents or court cases or ATF letters or rulings to prove it. He was ignorant of the law, ignorant of the rulings, and ignorant of existing state-of-the-art electronic semiautos.

People tend to be suspicious and cautious about the ATF, but no one can point to a single case, ruling, or letter where a true robust semiauto with an electronic trigger caused anyone grief.

This is old technology, in patents as old as the 1950's, and reduced to practice almost that long. The main Morini eTrigger semiauto pistol patent was from 1987, so it is already an expired patent after more than 20 years. Three-time olympic champion and two-time world champion Rapid Fire shooter Ralf Schumann has been shooting an electronic triggered Pardini (mainly) since about 2001, and he has brought it with him in his luggage to the USA on many televised occasions. Schumann designed the electronic trigger system for Pardini, and it has been written about extensively. It was even briefly mentioned in TIME magazine in Sept 2000... Back when it was the Clinton/Reno ATF. No problems in 10 years. Despite all the hemming and hawing, the ATF has never had a problem with semiautomatic electronics, so long as they are reliably semiauto, and don't have an "auto option" built in to them.

Electronic triggered semiautos are absolutely legal and commercially available. They are legal as long as they don't play games with one-shot-one-pull, and are not capable of other shot and trigger behavior (unmodified).

If anyone doesn't believe me, simply send me $3000 by PayPal, and I will buy myself a Pardini and shoot it to prove it to you. - Seriously, though, I would like to have one. Or, you could simply order one for yourself...

http://www.larrysguns.com/Products/P...ol__SP1RF.aspx

Also, the Pardini list price is $2833, but without the "undercoating," you can get it for $2541 (rapid fire version), $2258 (reg fire version), and $2491 in .32S&W long.

BTW, the 10/22 eTrigger will not cost that much...The MSRP still hasn't been fully estimated by the M's, but we know it won't be in that ballpark. That is, if we ever finish the design and get it tweaked and nailed down well enough to justify a small batch.

Otherwise, it may be an extremely rare collector's item one day, the first operating Ruger 10/22 eTrigger in the world, 1 of 2, signed.

Last edited by BulZi; 01-28-2010 at 12:03 PM.
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  #11  
Old 01-30-2010, 02:41 PM
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We all remember these,right?

I'm sure the technology won't stop at the original design. It sure seems to be one of the best things to happen for triggers in quite a while,IMHO.

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  #12  
Old 01-30-2010, 03:42 PM
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getting better

True true. Things do seem to get better, and earlier advances are the foundation for later stuff. While this may be the first working electronic trigger for the 10-22, the concept is VERY old, and many high-end target guns have had it. Although my trigger does kind of look like a "brick" phone, it is actually more like the vintage 2001 blocky Nokias, because it is intermediate in the evolution of the technology. We still don't have the iPhone or Google Android etrigger yet, but hopefully we will have a very nice system that is very fun to shoot.

Right now, we are tweaking the design for easier manufacturing, easier assembly/disassembly/cleaning by the user, ergonomics of the trigger shoe, etc. The fewer the parts, and the easier they are to machine, the better the MSRP will be - so please try to be patient as we tweak.

This will be a whole new platform for people to develop off of. The basic design is very flexible, and people can easily design alternative parts, to change the trigger shoe, etc. We will try to build something that works well for the general shooter, but everything on a 10-22 is customizable, and that is part of why people like them so much.

Again, another major reason why I started on the project was the quest for a better bullpup. The biggest problem with most bullpup's is the trigger. The eTrigger solves this problem in a spectacular way, since the end result is a lighter, more tunable trigger with better reliability than any pure mechanical system would allow in a bullpup.

Another important feature is tunability. It is hard for someone to drop a ton of cash on a very light mechanical trigger for target use, because they don't really know exactly what pull weight works best for them, or because certain league rules specify a certain minimum. With this trigger, if you put a few springs into the cylinders, you can repeatedly and reliably go from a pull weight of grams up to several kg's, and back down. There is no mechanical trigger for 10-22 that allows a user to set the pull weight over such a large range - many of them must be sent "back to the factory" because the adjustment of weight requires setting a tiny plunger screw with a very short stroke to a precise position, which is not something the average shooter can easily do.

This week will have a lot of development, and hopefully a few posts along the way.

Thanks to all for your interest in the thread.

Last edited by BulZi; 01-30-2010 at 03:46 PM.
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  #13  
Old 04-23-2010, 04:53 PM
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Etrigger+Bullpup Stock

BulZi,
I am interested in both the Etrigger+Bullpup Stock when they are available. Please contact me at your convenience when you are ready for production. Thank you and take care.
Waterbound
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  #14  
Old 10-18-2012, 01:54 PM
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Darn, had the same idea, googled to see if it had been done and found that I'm a few years late. : )
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Old 10-18-2012, 03:38 PM
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With modern technology, it probably can be up-graded to voice commands,
like 'loose the torpedos', 'sickem', or 'Yellow Submarine', or what ever.

Just have to buy the Dragon speach recognition software, and keep a small computer handy.
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