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  #31  
Old 07-02-2015, 08:26 AM
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@Cramiekske

....thank you so much for the added photos of the parts.....besides the topic we are discussing here, these pictures help me in my latest project bringing a fire-damaged Challenger back to life ! (thank you). By the way....if your corner of the world has a spare slide hold-open lever available someplace, I would appreciate knowing where to get one...thanks.

Thanks also for scaling down the original pics as the resulting text also becomes more manageable and usable by not going off the screen.

I have seen the 3-series Youtube videos you cite... and think (as you do) that these are great films to watch for those of us interested in these guns...for me I found the actual operation of the dry-fire mechanism to be very informative.

Last edited by IPSC; 07-07-2015 at 03:08 PM.
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  #32  
Old 07-06-2015, 04:12 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cramiekske View Post
My Challenger is broken down to pieces, Have done the same with my International and see if transplanting the safety and other piece give the Challenger any dry fire capabilities. I think I have all the pieces ready for the transplant. Now just need a bit of extra time, and "Murphy" out of the way. :-))
I tried the transplant of the safety mechanisme of my International (second series) to my Challenger over the weekend, and it did not give me any dry-fire capabilities On the Challenger. :-((
Now I also noted afterwards when I put everything back to its original position in the original pistol that the sear of both guns are slightly different, so I pressume that the safety lever has an effect on the sear (engaging or not engaging) i'm not sure but this is just a gut feeling.
I will try to do it again (at a later moment in time) but this time I'll also change the sear and sear spring.

Last edited by Cramiekske; 07-06-2015 at 04:20 AM.
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  #33  
Old 07-06-2015, 07:59 AM
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Cramiekske.....
We admire and appreciate your experimenting efforts. Please be careful such that the original parts from each gun end up in their original positions. It would be a shame to mess up your guns with a mixed bag of parts... even though the parts are dimensionally very much the same, I'm sure you would want the original parts in their original locations. And your original functionality maintained.

Last edited by IPSC; 07-06-2015 at 09:48 AM.
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  #34  
Old 07-06-2015, 05:47 PM
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@IPSC remember the animation I posted on the disassembly of the Buckmark? Well it happens that I have the program on my iPad.
When I load the 3D model and zoom in on the safety you can clearly see the relation between the safety lever and the sear.
So if I translate this to the dry-fire on the Challenger it is logical that you need to have a different sear in order to hold the hammer but let the sear engage / non-engage

Have a look at the following (reduced :-)) ) screen caprures.


If I turn the X-ray Vision on it becomes this.
SAFETY OFF



SAFETY ON
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  #35  
Old 07-06-2015, 07:23 PM
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That is very interesting. However, that would be in conflict with the Browning parts list (that I may have mentioned, 1978 version)....showing an identical sear for Nomad-Challenger-Medalist.... part number PO 51788 ( or part number 5788 if found inside the owner's manual....which usually removes the "PO" and the " 1 " after the 5).

I'm not necessarily saying the parts list is correct..as recall.....it shows a safety lever, part PO 519880..... as common for Nomad-Challenger (which seems correct).....whereas it also shows a unique click plate for Nomad (part PO 51730)..and a shared part number between Challenger and Medalist (part PO 51731). Here is the oddity---> Challenger does not have the dry fire *function*.....so we would expect the same click plate as Nomad, however, we are finding here on this discussion board that indeed all Challengers we are finding with close examination...have the Medalist click plate installed.

The other oddity is the firing pin. The parts catalogue lists a firing pin common for all 3 models (PO 51745)....HOWEVER...it ALSO shows a "Fire-pin, for dry firing"...listed only for the Medalist. The 1978 cost for these two items is also odd.....the common real firing pin at $2.75, yet the "Fire-pin, for dry firing" is $ 0.50

Does Medalist have 2 firing pins....one "real" and one "fake" for dry-firing ?????

Continuing....there is one part number for "hammer-pin" (the large diameter main hammer pin) for C-M (PO 51893)...and another part number for Nomad (PO 51895). I have no idea why the main pivot point for the hammer should be different.

These are all the differences I can find, and even with this list, it does not explain the technical differences adequately enough to gain clarity.

.

Last edited by IPSC; 09-29-2015 at 06:08 PM.
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  #36  
Old 09-18-2015, 03:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IPSC View Post
That is very interesting. However, that would be in conflict with the Browning parts list (that I may have mentioned, 1978 version)....showing an identical sear for Nomad-Challenger-Medalist.... part number PO 51788 ( or part number 5788 if found inside the owner's manual....which usually removes the "PO" and the " 1 " after the 5).

I'm not necessarily saying the parts list is correct..as recall.....it shows a safety lever, part PO 519880..... as common for Nomad-Challenger (which seems correct).....whereas it also shows a unique click plate for Nomad (part PO 51730)..and a shared part number between Challenger and Medalist (part PO 51731). Here is the oddity---> Challenger does not have the dry fire *function*.....so we would expect the same click plate as Nomad, however, we are finding here on this discussion board that indeed all Challengers we are finding with close examination...have the Medalist click plate installed.

The other oddity is the firing pin. The parts catalogue lists a firing pin common for all 3 models (PO 51745)....HOWEVER...it ALSO shows a "Fire-pin, for dry firing"...listed only for the Medalist. The 1978 cost for these two items is also odd.....the common real firing pin at $2.75, yet the "Fire-pin, for dry firing" is $ 0.50

Does Medalist have 2 firing pins....one "real" and one "fake" for dry-firing ?????

Continuing....there is one part number for "hammer-pin" (the large diameter main hammer pin) for C-M (PO 51893)...and another part number for Nomad (PO 51895). I have no idea why the main pivot point for the hammer should be different.

These are all the differences I can find, and even with this list, it does not explain the technical differences adequately enough to gain clarity.

.
Depending on the manual used that "Fire-pin, for dry firing" is also called a hammer stop pin (a very accurate description since that is the pin captured by the Medalist safety hook) and has part# PO51747.

A Medalist click plate (can't find a Nomad click plate in my Nomad either, FWIW), safety, and hammer stop pin appears to be all that is needed to implement the dry fire feature in ANY Belgian Browning .22.

I believe that if Cramiekske had ALSO swapped the Medalist hammer assembly or just transplanted the stop pin when he tried the safety on his Challenger....... it would have been good to go, with a working dry-fire feature.

WGP price/availability quote from 9/18/2015 @ 4PM:

PO51747 Hammer stop pin 6.95
PO51984 Safety, M 69.95 plus s/h and taxes, very few left

And, as of 9/21/2015 @0815 PST there are two fewer of each part.

The parts arrived 9/28, and were subsequently installed with the spare stop pin and safety saved for a future Challenger. The pin is not hardened and is pinched in the middle, giving a pilot at each end and a tight interference fit once pressed in from the left/safety side of the hammer stop pin hole until flush with the opposite side of the hammer. Flat vice jaws will suffice, gripping jaw faces would likely damage the soft(ish) pin. There are two fine chips left at the base of the pin, easily flicked off with a utility/x-acto blade or such.

With my now dry-fire capable Nomad, I found engaging/dis-engaging to be difficult only the first few times. The operating paddle of the safety is not too difficult to grip with the extra width, and it's just a matter of getting used to the extra "umph" to slide across the clickplate.

I am really going to enjoy using this new feature immensely, I think.

Last edited by LavaTech; 09-30-2015 at 10:41 AM. Reason: continuity; clarity
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  #37  
Old 09-30-2015, 02:17 PM
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Great thread everyone.

I ordered two sets of dry fire parts from WGP. I don't know if I will put it on the Challenger that I use the most since it already has special aluminum tabs on the safety and slide release and the new Medalist safety wouldn't match. I may just save them for later.
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  #38  
Old 11-17-2015, 09:21 PM
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Let's save this for posterity...as we (all) went round-and-round on this until we came to a final conclusion:

1.) Most all (if not indeed ALL) Belgian Browning pistols of this type seem to have the Medalist style click plate, even though the dry-fire capability offered by this plate is not available on Nomad and Challenger.

2.) A Medalist click plate, Medalist safety, and hammer stop pin ( aka "dry-fire pin"), appears to be all that is needed to implement the dry fire feature in ANY Belgian Browning .22....as mentioned above.


.
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  #39  
Old 12-04-2015, 03:11 PM
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Absolutely fantastic info everyone!

Thread seems to have morphed into dry fire specific info, that's O.K. I own 2 Browning Medalists and it is really a very cool feature. I thought I might add some basic info and pics, maybe even a few questions to keep this thread alive so to speak.

First off, if you don't mind I'd really like to tell you all how I got my 2 Brownings and how I knew they were a good buy when I did finally get them.

Back in 1981, I was a very young man who got really lucky and ended up with a great job. I was manager of a very large, very successful gunshop, we specialized in used militaria and collectable firearms. We commonly had Browning Medalists, (First version, with wooden forearm) in stock either used trade-ins or consignment. We had absolutely no problems selling them used for $850.00

I had a good job and good pay but, NO WAY I COULD AFFORD THAT.

Were talkin' Canada, by the way, not that it really matters in this case.

I had pretty much consigned myself to the fact that I would probably never own one of these fine pistols.

Fast forward===== After experiencing 20 or 25 years of life I ended up back at the same gunshop working as a low level helper. I'm walkin' by the handgun display cases one day and I spot a Medalist, $350.00 I'm a company guy so first thing I do is check with higher ups. Answer I get is "We don't have any luck selling those old guns these days, our customers want AR15's & Glocks" "We just price 'em to move"

Thanks to Layaway plans I got it.

A week goes by and I'm walkin' by the display cases and what do I see?
It kinda looks like a medalist but no forearm. For $325.00 I'll take it. (International Medalist)

Time to throw some pics in !

Medalist 1.jpg

My original Medalist

Medalist 4c.jpg

With largest barrel weight attached

Int Medalist 1.jpg

My second Medalist, (International)

Medalist 6.jpg

The "Brothers"

Medalist 7.jpg

Showing differences

=========================

Some real nitpicky collector info most of you are probably aware of but I wasn't for the longest time.

Re: dates of manufacture

Browning says , Year followed by Type followed by firearm production number

WRONG and Browning has no interest in correcting this info.

My original Medalist is marked with the serial # 125###T9

Clearly, the above firearm is a 1969 produced medalist, with a single digit year code for 1969 ????

My International Medalist is marked with the serial #61###T74

A 1974 production International Medalist.

Couple of questions for you all.

1) Did Browning make Medalists in 1969 with both single and double digit date codes IE: T9 and also T69 ???

2) Has anyone seen an International Medalist in it's original box/case ???

By the way, the red markings are just grease pencil to highlight them, got bored one day.

Thanks guys, and everyone have a great day.
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  #40  
Old 01-10-2016, 11:51 PM
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[QUOTE=castironcook;5549027][B] ...., maybe even a few questions to keep this thread alive so to speak.

Couple of questions for you all.

1) Did Browning make Medalists in 1969 with both single and double digit date codes IE: T9 and also T69 ???

2) Has anyone seen an International Medalist in it's original box/case ???

QUOTE]
I show several Type I International Medalist with T9 and several with T69. Some have BAC barrel address and some have the FN address. For question 2 I believe Mark25/06 has one or two in the original box.

This thread needs to be over on the Browning Pistol sub forum. Mods????

SO

Last edited by seaotter; 01-11-2016 at 12:00 AM.
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  #41  
Old 01-11-2016, 12:24 PM
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This gets explained to many times, but here goes again. Fabrique Nationale (FN) the manufacture of the Belgium made pistols in question and Browning Arms Company (BAC) the distributor in North America having their on name as a barrel address: As to FN the standard Medalist which has a 6 3/4" barrel and the Medalist with a 5 7/8" barrel were both called a Medalist and FN used the barrel length for terminology in the USA. These had a serial designation of "T". BAC cataloged the 6 3/4" as a Medalist and the 5 7/8" as a Medalist International. The only production years for an International with BCA markings that I have found is 1970, 1971 & 1974. These did not come in a box, they came in a Browning deluxe fleece lined pouch measuring 15 X 7 and having a brass zipper. The muzzle protector changed from a red elastic to a fleece around 1971 so depending on shipping an earlier one would have a red protector and the latter a fleece, both shown below along with an early International with a forearm which is rather rare:

Early 1970 factory tapped for forearm , but no dove tail cut for counterweight support.

[/URL]

1971 (left hand) with red muzzle protector fleece lined pouch.

[/URL]

1974 with fleece protector in fleece lined pouch.

[/URL]

A Medalist with 6 3/4" barrel cased with screw driver tool, counterweights, counterweight support and bullet block. (Shown in the Renaissance model)

[/URL]

All production of these two types of Medalist ended by 1976, having a few parts guns assembled.

In 1975 FN manufactured a .22 L. R. Automatic with a 5 15/16" slab type barrel, matte finish with palm rest grip termed by manual as an "International" using a serial designation of "I 75". It appears these were primarily made for the 1976 Olympics held in Canada with the leftover in production being sold in Canada and some in the USA. This type was only cataloged by BAC in 1980, but was listed in the wholesale price list from 1977-1980. This was also called an "International" by BCA and FN as BCA did not sale this one and the earlier "T" at the same time. It was boxed as shown below.

[/URL]

Note: All pistols were supplied with a manual and some of the primary designated models to be sold by FN, but having some sold by BAC i. e. the "I 75" would come with both the FN and the BAC manuals. (Not all manuals shown in these pictures)

The later "International" which came in a plastic box and looked like the "I 75" series described above was made in France by "MAB", which was owned by FN. These had the alpha-numeric serial number with the two alphabetical letters designating the year of manufacture and were called the "International II". These were never sold by BAC. Note: By 1977 BAC was bought and controlled by FN, so FN had other distributors in the USA for there products. Hence, there is always confusion when one calls the "I 75" series an International II as it may be the second generation to BAC, but only the first generation to FN. (These are actually two different type pistols) My explanations are for describing the pistols sold in the USA as there are other designations used for these type FN made pistols sold in other countries. My little expertise is dealing with Belgiun made BAC pistols so the picture of the French made International will be found in other postings in these threads. I hope this explains the pistols without to much confusion. Mark
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  #42  
Old 01-15-2016, 04:24 PM
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Excellent Info Everyone!

As stated above.

Excellent Info Everyone!

Thanks for your help.

Better educated collectors and shooters is what it all boils down to!

Castironcook
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