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Old 01-07-2020, 10:36 AM
vlnbyr

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What if



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What would happen if you took your tuned BR rifle and sent it to an independent tester where under perfect conditions they could do this test.

Using your best ammo shoot a 100 shot group at your tuner setting. Then shoot another 100 shot group at every setting both above and below that setting for two full revolutions. Mix up the targets and when you get the stack do you think you could pick your own setting target out of the pile.

Or would you have a stack of 100 targets that all looked pretty much the same?

John
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Old 01-07-2020, 12:35 PM
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Good question John, this should get people thinking, by the way happy New Year.
I don't believe the 100 targets would look the same.
I believe doing this test would offer some good data, but never perfect.
Even in a tunnel the conditions can vary during testing. Temp, humidity, pressure, and air movement can change even in a "controlled environment". Not to mention how often and when the barrel is cleaned during the test.
Also even at the highest level of ammo quality there will be variations in the 100 shells shot in each group. You can not duplicate the same 100 rounds exactly because of variances within the lot.
I do feel that you would see a changing pattern of group sizes that in a perfect world should mirror our perfect tunnel setting. (assuming that the original tuner setting was perfect) The problem we have is even at the highest levels of equipment and ammo there are always are variables beyond our control, and situations that we can never repeat perfectly.
I'm sure Landy and others will chime in. This should be a good topic.
See you in the spring my friend,
Glen H
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Old 01-07-2020, 01:01 PM
vlnbyr

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This would be more interesting if you broke it into two sessions one box at a time same bull/group.
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Old 01-07-2020, 02:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vlnbyr View Post
This would be more interesting if you broke it into two sessions one box at a time same bull/group.
It would be, and testing tune on many days is always better.
Different day different conditions, to confirm we got things right.
Some folks test groups once and may think that they have the magic number, but perhaps that 5 shot group that is one nice hole, happened because the wind shifted and carried a couple of bad shots back to center. The next group at the same setting may scatter the shots. Can't determine a proper setting in just a couple of tries. Confirm and reconfirm results.
There are others here, including you John who know how to dial in a rifle, always good to hear others opinions. Great topic to stimulate conversation.

Glen H
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Old 01-07-2020, 10:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vlnbyr View Post
This would be more interesting if you broke it into two sessions one box at a time same bull/group.
Are we talking same day? or perhaps the next day.
IMO if you have a really great barrel/chamber then you may be able to pick the targets out. otherwise as you shot more the barrel's quality and chamber will come onto play and group size will be different but any real difference would not be that noticeable.
I should add more than likely group position in relation to tuner adjustments would be more noticeable. 50 clicks out or in from the best setting will in most rifles change POI position

Lee

Last edited by Hi-NV Shooter; 01-07-2020 at 10:10 PM.
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Old 01-07-2020, 10:59 PM
linekin
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If I'm understanding your question correctly John, probably not. The reason I say this is that I think you can find a tune somewhere in each revolution. There fore I think you'd have several really large groups being out of tune & several very small groups which you wouldn't be able to tell which was your original one.
If you'd like to send me a case of your best ammo I'd be happy to test it out for you!!LOL

Keith

Last edited by linekin; 01-07-2020 at 11:02 PM.
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Old 01-08-2020, 03:16 AM
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I want you to test every single setting...All 500 on a Harrell


Well, you couldn’t do it with Eley. The test requires a minimum of 1,000 boxes of ammo. The biggest lot sizes I usually see are <600 boxes.

At 5 seconds per shot, it will take you 69 hours minimum.

I wonder what the barrel temp would be at the conclusion of the test. This study says No Worries at one shot every 30 seconds. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3944560/


If you were to fire 100 rounds into the each paper target, I suspect that visually the holes in the paper will look very similar at each of the settings. I believe that the higher the round count, the more similar the targets will look.

However, if you were to plot each shot electronically, I suspect that the Mean Radius would be different for many of the settings.

Last edited by KyleAllen; 01-08-2020 at 03:35 AM.
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Old 01-08-2020, 01:52 PM
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All 500 would be the ultimate but nobody is going to ever do that, maybe at one box/group. The mean radius thing is a big factor in score, not so much in overall group size that most shooters go by in tuning.

For sure there are always more factors we can't control than those we can and those factors are there during tuning as well.
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Old 01-08-2020, 06:50 PM
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I would imagine the results would be the same (or very similar) to what they would be for someone doing the testing themselves the way they usually do. I'm sure there are a few people who might be a little surprised. Buy I think most would have the same conclusion already.
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Old 01-08-2020, 07:27 PM
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John: Are you really that bored? Or did you get your school house range back and are looking for a way to pass the winter doldrums?

I suggest an easier way. Have your smith make your next .900 barrel about 24 inches long, hang a H/H tuner on it set to 160 and shoot your group. You might try 25 or so clicks either side of it but somewhere in there will be the "best it can be". Tape the tuner and go shoot. HNY! bob
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Old 01-08-2020, 08:07 PM
vlnbyr

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Bob, First so good to hear from you. Might be a little bored but the larger question is why your solution would work. Is it that if you shoot enough shots everything starts looking alike? Is tuning mostly just the fact of installing a weight ahead of the crown? I think Kyle has it right in that it is the mean radius that overrides the size of the group. That 160 spot is for sure the most often spot for that size barrel but others show up on a regular basis too and often in one revolution spreads. The questions are the easy part, answers not so much. John
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Old 01-14-2020, 06:00 PM
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John, been my experience that a rifle out of phase is a 1 and done. do not believe there is a 1 tune per rotation of a Harrell tuner where a rifle is in tune. closer the faster and shallower the nod, as the tuner is adjusted outward the depth of the nod increases. marty
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  #13  
Old 01-18-2020, 06:33 PM
mwezell
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Quote:
Originally Posted by linekin View Post
If I'm understanding your question correctly John, probably not. The reason I say this is that I think you can find a tune somewhere in each revolution. There fore I think you'd have several really large groups being out of tune & several very small groups which you wouldn't be able to tell which was your original one.
If you'd like to send me a case of your best ammo I'd be happy to test it out for you!!LOL

Keith
I agree! I certainly don't believe that a h/h or any other tuner has only one sweet spot. I mean, would it have more if it had 1 more revolution of tuner travel or two, or three more turns? What's the combination needed before the next sweet spot will come around. Or, did Harrell's make their tuner with the right length, weight, thread pitch, etc, to find that one holy grail sweet spot on every rifle within only its travel but not other tuner designs?

Serious question, sorta. No replies necessary. Just intended to make people that believe there is only one sweet spot, stop and think. That's all.
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Old 01-19-2020, 04:17 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bob finger View Post
John: Are you really that bored? Or did you get your school house range back and are looking for a way to pass the winter doldrums?

I suggest an easier way. Have your smith make your next .900 barrel about 24 inches long, hang a H/H tuner on it set to 160 and shoot your group. You might try 25 or so clicks either side of it but somewhere in there will be the "best it can be". Tape the tuner and go shoot. HNY! bob
After having a Shilen Ratchet put on late last year I have had a problem finding a tune. Its about 25". So I took Bobs advice and set it at 160 with all other devices off (mid barrel, slide, weights) ect. I first shot some groups with all 3 brands, RWS, Eley, and Lapua. Pretty darn good. I then went the full turn heavier 5 clicks at a time. Just got worse. Went back to 160 and 5 clicks lighter and it is shooting the best it ever has. Waiting for weather (shoot outside) to try more settings below 160. Thanks Bob !
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Old 01-19-2020, 08:54 AM
vlnbyr

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Mike and swo....It's results like this that always have me wondering. For sure there are always multiple tunes where a rifle will shoot. Sometimes those change and a new spot will appear. Sometimes an ammo switch will make a change. All of which lead to this post, sure if you only shoot 5 or 10 shots at a setting you can see big differences. A whole box at each setting 0-500 I'm pretty sure the 50 shot groups will all look pretty much alike. John
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