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  #76  
Old 11-30-2019, 05:56 AM
Bigbore
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LtCrunch View Post

I love a good gedanken experiment and this thread is certainly thought provoking.

I suspect that a simple consumer chronograph will not have the precision necessary to differentiate the slight ignition timing differences between firing pin locations but am certainly willing to wait and let your data tell the story.
By reviewing some of the replies it seems nobody has read the results from tests that have already been done. Only had to click a link and read. Not a real motivator to do even more work. Fortunately I am personally curious and don't mind sharing my work. I actually appreciate another critical set of eyes even if it comes with a..., uh...personality(not you).

You would be surprised at the level of precision that is available to the consumer for very low cost. My ProChrono when set up well is amazingly accurate. I firmly believe that even cheap instruments are better than guesses. Take the Wheeler trigger pull gauge for example. I 've tested it to aconfident +/- 4 oz.(probably half that) Lab precision? No. Better than guessing? By a magnitude.

We'll see where this goes. I would ask that people who don't see value in it to stop cluttering the post.
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  #77  
Old 11-30-2019, 07:10 AM
Ray1946
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I think all it takes is someone with a perfectly good 10/22 bolt who is willing to essentially destroy it in order to prove the point. After a lot of thought I have decided to relent and agree to the 6 and 12 o'clock position; then to test the 3 and 9 o'clock position the rifle could be rotated 90 degrees and thus create the 3 and 9 o'clock position, thus enabling a duel test. I humble my self a lot in life to get along with others; so don't thank me, just get the job done......................
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  #78  
Old 11-30-2019, 08:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bigbore View Post
By reviewing some of the replies it seems nobody has read the results from tests that have already been done. Only had to click a link and read. Not a real motivator to do even more work. Fortunately I am personally curious and don't mind sharing my work. I actually appreciate another critical set of eyes even if it comes with a..., uh...personality(not you).

You would be surprised at the level of precision that is available to the consumer for very low cost. My ProChrono when set up well is amazingly accurate. I firmly believe that even cheap instruments are better than guesses. Take the Wheeler trigger pull gauge for example. I 've tested it to aconfident +/- 4 oz.(probably half that) Lab precision? No. Better than guessing? By a magnitude.

We'll see where this goes. I would ask that people who don't see value in it to stop cluttering the post.

I pride myself on reading for content Bigbore. You mentioned the Calfee book which I should but don't own and provided a dead link to Geoffrey Kolbe's site. Did I miss a working link to a data set relevant to your hypothesis?

The manufacturer of the Pro Chrono states a minimum accuracy of +/- 1%. Call it a 20 fps fudge factor on 1000 fps nominal ammunition. That "noise" could easily overwhelm the "signal" you receive from your modified firing pins in testing.

So this is where I'm looking forward to seeing some data.

Cheers,

Frank
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  #79  
Old 11-30-2019, 05:49 PM
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the pin is 8 gr same as the stock one.
i only had one 3/32 end mill with to short a length of cut so it cut a little
on the top of bolt in the slot will need to a longer one . also had to trim the pin
indent on top to get the pin to fit into the slot.


Greg the tinker
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  #80  
Old 11-30-2019, 08:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 22/silencer View Post
the pin is 8 gr same as the stock one.
i only had one 3/32 end mill with to short a length of cut so it cut a little
on the top of bolt in the slot will need to a longer one . also had to trim the pin
indent on top to get the pin to fit into the slot.


Greg the tinker
More good work, Greg. If your initial findings are positive I'm happy to test and run some high-speed video. Not sure what we'd learn, but could be interesting. I also have a new machinist who could probably replicate your design fairly easily if results are really good. (Not the machinist taking for-%%%%-ever with my bolts. New guy.)
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  #81  
Old 11-30-2019, 11:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GH41 View Post
You are kidding I hope. Maybe you can document how long in milliseconds it takes for the priming compound to burn from the top of the case to the bottom. This whole conversation is a joke. To bad not many of you recognize it as a joke.It's pretty tough to reinvent a wheel.
Weeelllll, SAAMI doesn't think it's a joke. Refer to SAAMI Z299.3
https://saami.org/wp-content/uploads...sting-Copy.pdf

SAAMI Z299.4
https://saami.org/wp-content/uploads...sting-Copy.pdf

Western Powders isn't in on the joke either.
http://blog.westernpowders.com/2015/...-and-pressure/

Glad you got the joke the rest of us missed.

Nolan
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  #82  
Old 12-01-2019, 05:26 AM
Bigbore
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 22/silencer View Post
the pin is 8 gr same as the stock one.
i only had one 3/32 end mill with to short a length of cut so it cut a little
on the top of bolt in the slot will need to a longer one . also had to trim the pin
indent on top to get the pin to fit into the slot.


Greg the tinker
[email protected]_ss!
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  #83  
Old 12-01-2019, 05:29 AM
Bigbore
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LtCrunch View Post
I pride myself on reading for content Bigbore. You mentioned the Calfee book which I should but don't own and provided a dead link to Geoffrey Kolbe's site. Did I miss a working link to a data set relevant to your hypothesis?

The manufacturer of the Pro Chrono states a minimum accuracy of +/- 1%. Call it a 20 fps fudge factor on 1000 fps nominal ammunition. That "noise" could easily overwhelm the "signal" you receive from your modified firing pins in testing.

So this is where I'm looking forward to seeing some data.

Cheers,

Frank
The link didn't work for me when it was brought to my attention so I refreshed and tested it. Hmmm? I was curious enough to search it out and read it, it can be found with little effort.

Yeah, chronographs, why bother.
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  #84  
Old 12-01-2019, 05:31 AM
Bigbore
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Originally Posted by GH41 View Post
You are kidding I hope. Maybe you can document how long in milliseconds it takes for the priming compound to burn from the top of the case to the bottom. This whole conversation is a joke. To bad not many of you recognize it as a joke.It's pretty tough to reinvent a wheel.
Had you searched out and read the experiment I linked to you would probably feel a little silly for putting this in writing.
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  #85  
Old 12-01-2019, 11:28 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bigbore View Post
The link didn't work for me when it was brought to my attention so I refreshed and tested it. Hmmm? I was curious enough to search it out and read it, it can be found with little effort.
Yes I did eventually find a copy on rimfireaccuracy and now I see your link is working again http://www.geoffrey-kolbe.com/articl...firing_pin.htm

It's very interesting thank you. A single experiment doesn't prove much but it certainly points to possibilities.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bigbore View Post
Yeah, chronographs, why bother.
That's not what I said. Note in the experiment an Oehler 35 chronograph was used with a rated accuracy of .25%. Four times more precise than yours. Call it plus or minus 2.5 fps at 1000 fps. His standard deviations in both firing pin positions were smaller than half the measurement error tolerance of your chronograph.

Earlier you said you appreciate another set of critical eyes. Well here they are. I'm no ballistician but I do have more than a passing knowledge of metrology. Based on Kolbe's results if you want to continue the experiment and prove this theory beyond anecdotal supposition you will need more precise instrumentation.

Cheers,

Frank
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  #86  
Old 12-02-2019, 08:05 AM
Bigbore
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LtCrunch View Post

Yes I did eventually find a copy on rimfireaccuracy It's very interesting thank you. A single experiment doesn't prove much but it certainly points to possibilities.



That's not what I said. Note in the experiment an Oehler 35 chronograph was used with a rated accuracy of .25%. Four times more precise than yours.


Earlier you said you appreciate another set of critical eyes. Well here they are. I'm no ballistician but I do have more than a passing knowledge of metrology. Based on Kolbe's results if you want to continue the experiment and prove this theory beyond anecdotal supposition you will need more precise instrumentation.

Cheers,

Frank
I appreciate your participation, if you follow my posts you know I am consistent about quantifying results. I confess to being a little thin skinned about your reply perceiving you to have taken the trouble to discredit the only chronograph on the forum but not taking the time to read the provided experiment on the topic which was provided. My experience has been that the forum believes anecdotal evidence by the truckload, cliques perpetuate the myths and when someone comes along and actually does some testing or experimentation all of the sudden the forum has laboratory grade standards. I understand that we are here for fun, but that shouldn't dismiss facts or data.

I find the ProChrono to be more accurate than the manufacturer claims with the largest deviations probably attributable to setup and environmental conditions. I think it would be interesting to run the test just to see if I can duplicate the test velocity findings with an 18" barrel. The author was not clear about what barrel length they actually used, only that they started with a length that is accepted as detrimental to optimal performance.

Everybody that read the experiment knows the gem wasn't in the velocities. I purposefully leave out the details to encourage participants to read it. Regardless of the outcome of mine or anybody else's work, the experiment was pretty substantive IMO.

Last edited by Bigbore; 12-02-2019 at 08:23 AM.
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  #87  
Old 12-02-2019, 08:25 AM
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Bigbore, I found the whole premise interesting and you did provide a ton of data. More to the point what is the best range in So Fla to test things out? I'll be down that way soon to visit family and would love to shoot.
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  #88  
Old 12-02-2019, 08:36 AM
Bigbore
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jammer22 View Post
Bigbore, I found the whole premise interesting and you did provide a ton of data. More to the point what is the best range in So Fla to test things out? I'll be down that way soon to visit family and would love to shoot.
I go to Trail Glades Range. Best? Doubtful. You'll need to sit through a 20 minute safety course and get a range card. $15 for 4 hours at a position after that. The rifle positions don't have casing deflectors and the winds wreak havoc on .22 rimfire. There are other ranges further down south and up north but I don't travel to them. The other option is a private indoor pistol range, Cha-ching$

I'm always happy to provide fresh, interesting content if I can.
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  #89  
Old 12-02-2019, 05:18 PM
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"casing deflectors"..? You don't use a brass catcher? Speaking for myself, I have wearied of chasing brass, so I've done something about it. Caldwell makes a variety of catchers...
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  #90  
Old 12-02-2019, 08:42 PM
scooter22
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That looks great for tinkering.
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