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  #46  
Old 10-16-2019, 11:01 AM
jaia
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How would I test for that?

Single rifle, same scope setting, couple boxes of standard velocity, couple boxes of hi-v.
1 piece rest, 1 target, 1 aimpoint, 100 yards, alternate shots hi-v, standard v, watch the pattern develop?

There'd be 4 inches difference in vertical poi due to mv differences.
Should be possible to accomplish that in a morning.

Last edited by jaia; 10-16-2019 at 11:03 AM.
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  #47  
Old 10-16-2019, 11:07 AM
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No, there cannot be wind drift in a vacuum! The ballistic lag is calculated by comparison of the speed loss fired in atmosphere versus in a vacuum. There is no speed loss in a vacuum, unless you happen to encounter gravitational pull from a black hole. Which would be really bad if you happened to be shooting near a black hole. Ballistic lag is the speed loss, and high velocity .22 long rifle loses a higher percentage of it's speed than subsonic velocity does. You can doubt the facts as long as you wish and refuse to study long established factual evidence, but this is nothing new. The militaries of the world and ammunition manufacturers have tested and tested and tested all possible projectile shapes and velocities, and that preponderance of proof along with zillions of hours of laboratory tests and mathematical formulas make whatever Joe Shooter out in podunk USA thinks irrelevant. Facts is facts is facts.
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  #48  
Old 10-16-2019, 11:28 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Phil in Alabama View Post
No, there cannot be wind drift in a vacuum! The ballistic lag is calculated by comparison of the speed loss fired in atmosphere versus in a vacuum. There is no speed loss in a vacuum, unless you happen to encounter gravitational pull from a black hole. Which would be really bad if you happened to be shooting near a black hole. Ballistic lag is the speed loss, and high velocity .22 long rifle loses a higher percentage of it's speed than subsonic velocity does. You can doubt the facts as long as you wish and refuse to study long established factual evidence, but this is nothing new. The militaries of the world and ammunition manufacturers have tested and tested and tested all possible projectile shapes and velocities, and that preponderance of proof along with zillions of hours of laboratory tests and mathematical formulas make whatever Joe Shooter out in podunk USA thinks irrelevant. Facts is facts is facts.
I agree with you facts are facts! My experience is factual. My question is Why do I get different results than the theory says?
I shoot the same rifle, same scope, same day, same time. The wind in MT blows just like wind anyplace else. I get less wind drift with HV ammo.
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  #49  
Old 10-16-2019, 12:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by centershot243 View Post
I'm confused by this. I always believed that the HV bullet would be deflected LESS by wind because it was subjected to it for a shorter period of time. The slower bullet would be moved further by the wind because it was subjected to the wind for a longer period of time.
True if they both have the same coefficient of drag. But that coefficient is more than just the shape of the bullet (which is more or less the same for SV and HV). The speed of the bullet is also a factor affecting drag. The bullets moving at or just above above the speed of sound (below mach 2) have more drag than bullets moving below the speed of sound. Compression of air molecules?

Of course, a bullet that starts out above the speed of sound is going to slow down as it goes down range so the amount of drag is going to change during the bullet's flight as it gets down into SV velocities. That's going to be ... what? ... about the 70 yard mark?

Also consider that if the wind stays constant it's easy to adjust for regardless of the amount of drift. It's the variation in the wind that causes problems and the effect is more pronounced on HV ammo than on SV ammo because of the difference in drag.

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Originally Posted by Pat McCoy View Post
According to ballistician Robert McCoy (no relation), the big difference (with .22 sv versus hv) is the change in velocity over 100 yards when compared to the same in a vacuum. HV has a greater change, thus greater drift.
Sounds like a description of the effect of drag. What might help some folks understand drift is to remember that the wind isn't pushing the bullet downwind; the wind is pulling the bullet downwind -- the drag effect of the air molecules and the friction of the bullet's surface. And it's not straight downwind but at a vector that results from the bullet's movement forward through the air (one vector) combined with the movement of the air (the wind vector).

Last edited by Sophia; 10-16-2019 at 12:41 PM.
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  #50  
Old 10-16-2019, 01:12 PM
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Originally Posted by Sophia View Post
Of course, a bullet that starts out above the speed of sound is going to slow down as it goes down range so the amount of drag is going to change during the bullet's flight as it gets down into SV velocities. That's going to be ... what? ... about the 70 yard mark?
Good point. I alluded to this in an earlier post as being the possible reason for jpickar's results at 200 yards.

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Originally Posted by jpickar View Post
I agree with you facts are facts! My experience is factual. My question is Why do I get different results than the theory says?
I shoot the same rifle, same scope, same day, same time. The wind in MT blows just like wind anyplace else. I get less wind drift with HV ammo.
Why? Maybe because the HV ammo as stated above will not be under the Mach 1/Transonic region of drag continuously during its 200 yard flight.

Now if...."if"....you say this also happens around 80 - 100 yard tagets where SV has more drift than HV, well, then, I'll be confounded.
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  #51  
Old 10-16-2019, 05:36 PM
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I finally found my saved pdf on this phenomenon. Article was by Dan Periard, quoting Robert McCoy's "Modern Exterior Ballistics".

D=(T-R/MV)W

"The amount of deflection (D) a bullet experiences from a wind (W), is proportional to the "lag time", or the difference between the bullet's time of flight in a vacuum ( the distance to target (R) divided by the muzzle velocity, (MV), and the actual time of flight (T)."

Last edited by Pat McCoy; 10-16-2019 at 05:43 PM.
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  #52  
Old 10-16-2019, 08:07 PM
jaia
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I make it a point to watch for these detail oriented discussions.
The study related links are the best parts. Only one minor detail to point out.
Sadly enough, no manufacturer sells anything but bulk hi v 22lr.
We can chase the math and offer opinions as to how and why our results are what they are,
but without decent hi v 22lr capable of consistent mv's and having symmetric bullets
none of the arguments can be tested one way or another.
If a rooster lays an egg on the peak of the roof with the earth rotating east and the wind blowing north,
which way will the egg roll......Roosters don't lay eggs and there isn't any match quality hi v 22lr.
Ammunition quality will have more effect on results than the minor differences between SV and Hi V caused by wind drift.
A simple visual inspection of the cartridges and a ballistic chronograph out front defines the problem, quite clearly.

Last edited by jaia; 10-16-2019 at 08:15 PM.
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  #53  
Old 10-16-2019, 08:16 PM
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Per the original question of the thread, you can get a good representation of the more accurate ammo by looking at jaia's 200 yard test shooting. It is quickly apparent that all of the less expensive less than top line match ammo has a LOT of velocity variation with a corresponding huge verical impact dispersion. The large speed variation should also affect the wind displacement too.
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  #54  
Old 10-16-2019, 08:30 PM
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Originally Posted by Phil in Alabama View Post
Per the original question of the thread, you can get a good representation of the more accurate ammo by looking at jaia's 200 yard test shooting. It is quickly apparent that all of the less expensive less than top line match ammo has a LOT of velocity variation with a corresponding huge verical impact dispersion. The large speed variation should also affect the wind displacement too.
Ditto. And WOW... isn't that info great! Thanks a ton jaia!
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  #55  
Old 10-16-2019, 09:06 PM
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Originally Posted by NIB View Post
Good point. I alluded to this in an earlier post as being the possible reason for jpickar's results at 200 yards.

Why? Maybe because the HV ammo as stated above will not be under the Mach 1/Transonic region of drag continuously during its 200 yard flight.

Now if...."if"....you say this also happens around 80 - 100 yard tagets where SV has more drift than HV, well, then, I'll be confounded.
I shoot a 40X Sporter, (homemade), with a leupold 3X9 EFR scope. When shooting Win. Power Points and any subsonic ammo. I shoot at a 20" disc. with a 4" flapper covering the center hole.

With approx 10 to 15 mph wind at an angle at 100 yards. Win Power Points will be about 4" low and right. With subsonic or target ammo I will be about 8" low and right.

My 200 yard gong is in a different position so wind is a crosswind. Same 10 to 15 mph cross wind at 200 yards. Same 20" disc. Win. Power Points will be about 8 to the right and subsonic ammo is way off the disc hitting the dirt about 20 inches to the right. I don't know for sure how far the subsonic ammo is off because I am not hitting the gong at all and can't tell exactly.

I paint the gongs with bright yellow paint everytime I shoot so I can tell how far I'm off with the wind.
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  #56  
Old 10-16-2019, 09:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jaia View Post
I make it a point to watch for these detail oriented discussions.
The study related links are the best parts. Only one minor detail to point out.
Sadly enough, no manufacturer sells anything but bulk hi v 22lr.
We can chase the math and offer opinions as to how and why our results are what they are,
but without decent hi v 22lr capable of consistent mv's and having symmetric bullets
none of the arguments can be tested one way or another.
If a rooster lays an egg on the peak of the roof with the earth rotating east and the wind blowing north,
which way will the egg roll......Roosters don't lay eggs and there isn't any match quality hi v 22lr.
Ammunition quality will have more effect on results than the minor differences between SV and Hi V caused by wind drift.
A simple visual inspection of the cartridges and a ballistic chronograph out front defines the problem, quite clearly.

There are several HV ammo brands that aren't bulk. MY favorite current production is CCI mini mag HP. They are very consistent . I have shot this ammo for 50 years. My favorite HV ammo is the Win. Power Points- the first issue with the red and orange boxes. I have the two listed spreads of 18 and 25 fps. Non of the production that was made in the USA is near as good as the first issue made in Australia. I do have almost a case of that left!
This is my best 100 yard target with Win. Power Points. I have shot several expensive brands and types of target ammo and have not come close.
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  #57  
Old 10-16-2019, 10:29 PM
jaia
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JP, y'er luck with the hi v 22lr sales lottery has been better than mine.
What was shipped to me looked like it was dropped on the floor,
kicked around, swept up, then boxed and shipped.
Chronograph numbers were 3 to 4 times worse than what you reported.

Last edited by jaia; 10-16-2019 at 10:33 PM.
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  #58  
Old 10-16-2019, 10:52 PM
jpickar

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jaia,
Bummer you have had such bad luck with HV ammo. Have you ever bought any not in bulk? Did it look the same as the bulk?
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  #59  
Old 10-16-2019, 11:05 PM
jaia
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I've purchased the hi v 22lr in boxes of 50 and 100.
Fine for pistol or semiauto use at short range, but at 50 yards plus,
visible cartridge defects and MV spread produced less than satisfactory results.
I'd of enjoyed trying those consistent hi v you have at 200 yards,
just to compare to the match SV 22lr.
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  #60  
Old 10-16-2019, 11:46 PM
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Anyone search thru different lots of ELEY hv to compare?
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