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  #31  
Old 10-14-2019, 09:20 PM
jaia
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Hmmmm....if only someone had access to a ballistics lab and run tests on the 22lr
isolating all the variables and testing under controlled conditions. Say the lab run by
the US Army at Aberdeen...bet that would offer some reliable conclusions.
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  #32  
Old 10-14-2019, 10:26 PM
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It is counterintuitive, but the ballistics are a well tested proven fact. There is a speed zone, somewhere between 1100 and 2000 ft per second, where wind deflection actually increases with velocity. I don't remember the exact numbers, but a little research will find it on the net. Once that particular speed is exceeded, increasing velocity will decrease wind drift, as would seem logical.
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  #33  
Old 10-15-2019, 01:46 AM
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Not 22 rimfire here but, 9mm pistol and 5.56 Centerfire were a subject of study
at the Army Research Laboratory Aberdeen Proving Ground, MD.

A Direct-Fire Trajectory Model for Supersonic, Transonic, and Subsonic Projectile Flight

https://apps.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/a607593.pdf

The graphs of the Drag Coefficient versus Mach Number show an abrupt transition of drag in and around the (Mach 1, speed of sound) Transonic region.

A "Huge" statement (which I believe could mean a lot concerning 22 rimfire) copied below from the report.....
Quote:
A key assumption of the method is that there is an abrupt transition from supersonic to subsonic flight which essentially ignores the effect of the variations in drag in the transonic regime. For many applications, such as long range rifle systems, the duration of the flight in the transonic regime is small compared with the overall length of the flight and the effects on the trajectory are negligible. However, in some cases, such as pistol applications, the projectile may spend a significant portion of the flight in the transonic regime
I'm guessing that 22 rimfire spends a decent amount of time in the higher drag transonic regime compared to its duration of flight which would then support the greater time/greater effect, wind drift difference of high velocity compared to standard velocity presented in the links in my earlier post.

Last edited by NIB; 10-15-2019 at 01:58 AM.
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  #34  
Old 10-15-2019, 09:07 AM
jaia
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From the Aberdeen lab study of match quality 22lr both subsonic and supersonic

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  #35  
Old 10-15-2019, 10:07 AM
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At 200 yards shooting Hi velocity and target 22 ammo I get more drift from the target, subsonic, ammo. I live in central Montana where the wind blows a lot.

Thank you for the reports, but they just don't match my experience.
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  #36  
Old 10-15-2019, 01:10 PM
jaia
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I wonder how far from the muzzle the CCI Mini-Mag goes transonic?
Easy enough to calculate...

CCI Mini-Mag



So around 30-35 yards from the muzzle, the bullet runs under 1128 fps,
after that it's subsonic all the way out to 200 yards.

CCI SV



I need to think about wind drift, relative to time of flight and distance to target.

Not much of a difference in time of flight between the Mini-Mag and SV.
Not going to be much difference in wind drift either.

Last edited by jaia; 10-15-2019 at 02:03 PM.
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  #37  
Old 10-15-2019, 03:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jaia View Post
From the Aberdeen lab study of match quality 22lr both subsonic and supersonic

If you'd please. Where's the supersonic?
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  #38  
Old 10-15-2019, 04:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jpickar View Post
At 200 yards shooting Hi velocity and target 22 ammo I get more drift from the target, subsonic, ammo. I live in central Montana where the wind blows a lot.

Thank you for the reports, but they just don't match my experience.
What was the exact ammo you were comparing? Shot from the same rifle I presume?

Hi Velocity = ?
Target 22 ammo = ?

I believe the information I presented shows that the 22's Hi Velocities "time spent" in the transonic speed of sound region has high influence on bullet wind drift.
Overall bullet time of travel must also count. In your case the target ammo you said showing more wind drift must be spending a good deal more overall travel time to its 200 yard target?
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  #39  
Old 10-15-2019, 06:16 PM
jaia
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Where's the supersonic?

In the original link to the study back on page 2, didn't you read it?

Has shockwave spark graph images of 22lr supersonic, transonic and subsonic bullets.
See section 5 of the conclusions regarding the transition and it's effect.
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  #40  
Old 10-15-2019, 07:20 PM
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My favorite HV ammo is Win. Power Points. I also use CCI mini Mag HP as my second favorite. As far as subsonic ammo goes I have tried almost everything mentioned on this forum.

I am not trying to stir the pot here. I am just telling my experience is. You can just about prove anything you want with math and formulas. I don't put a lot of credibility in formulas as I just go out and see for myself what results I get. My statement of HV ammo doesn't drift as much as subsonic ammo is from years of reading it here then going out and seeing for myself. Not just once but several times with several different subsonic brands.

John
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  #41  
Old 10-15-2019, 07:27 PM
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I don't care what anyone says, shooting a few groups at any range long distance on any given day won't tell you a whole lot about brand A and brand B because of wind deflection and other variables

Here are some practice 200 meter targets shot with the same rifle, the same ammo, the same rests etc but on different days.


As you can see, not only the horizontal deflection gets worse but the vertical actually grows as well as a function of the wind and rifling shape. Imagine shooting brand A at the upper left target and brand B at the lower right. You would never buy brand B again and would say brand A shoots great in my rifle.

I don't want to be a Grinch but truth be told you can't go by what a lot of folks say about the quality of ammo on here. But when a lot of folks swear by brand A you sort of kind of believe that brand A may be pretty good. But how good is in the eye of the beholder. When asked what is the most precise is ammo you can't beat the high end Eley, Lapua or RWS. Don't believe the story that CCI SV out shot some Eley 10X in my rifle.
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  #42  
Old 10-15-2019, 07:51 PM
jaia
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JP, as long as the quality of the 22lr is decent, I'm thinking the results will be decent.
Wind drift can be compensated for, adapted to. My only answer to poor ammo quality
is to use it at short range where the defects have minimal effect on results.

Give me properly made rimfire ammo with minimal defects, supersonic or subsonic, it doesn't matter,
the results will be as consistent as the ammunition is. I wouldn't have believed it,
until it showed up on my 200 yard targets. Surprised the heck out of me.
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  #43  
Old 10-15-2019, 10:22 PM
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According to ballistician Robert McCoy (no relation), the big difference (with .22 sv versus hv) is the change in velocity over 100 yards when compared to the same in a vacuum. HV has a greater change, thus greater drift.

%see: McCoy,%Robert%L.%Modern%Exterior%Ballistics.%2nd%E dition.%Schiffer%Publishing%Ltd.%2012.%

Last edited by Pat McCoy; 10-15-2019 at 10:26 PM.
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  #44  
Old 10-16-2019, 10:13 AM
jaia
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Thanks Pat....you do know I'll be buried in this one for a while.

All that information to work my way through...y'er just trying to keep me busy...ain't ya.

https://archive.org/details/ModernEx...s2ndEd.R.McCoy
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  #45  
Old 10-16-2019, 10:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pat McCoy View Post
According to ballistician Robert McCoy (no relation), the big difference (with .22 sv versus hv) is the change in velocity over 100 yards when compared to the same in a vacuum. HV has a greater change, thus greater drift.

%see: McCoy,%Robert%L.%Modern%Exterior%Ballistics.%2nd%E dition.%Schiffer%Publishing%Ltd.%2012.%
OK so the theory is there is less drift in a vacuum. I don't shoot in a vacuum. I shoot real world. I get less drift with HV ammo over subsonic ammo. Which makes sense. What does that say about the theory?
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