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  #136  
Old 11-04-2018, 06:27 PM
fidelity

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Is there a useful Android phone app where one can use an image of a target, give it a reference size distance on the target, and have it output the average shot distance between all unique pairwise combinations with the standard deviation?

If shooting groups, for 3 shots, there are 3 different pairwise combinations; for 4 shots, 6 different combinations; for 5 shots, 10 different combinations; for 6 shots, 15 combinations; etc ... basically n(n-1)/2 where n is your number of shots. I have 10 shot groups, for which there would be 45 combinations.

Took a couple of 22 WMR rifles to the range today and want to analyze my targets.

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  #137  
Old 11-04-2018, 06:29 PM
jaia
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Not that I know of.
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  #138  
Old 11-04-2018, 07:52 PM
fidelity

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Too bad. I'd really like to analyze the data. While looking at the two most distant shots in a shot group (the outer bounds) gives a rough sense of consistency, it fails to convey information on a distribution and reproducibility between shots. I tend to be lazy and use the first approach, mostly because I usually only shoot 5 shot groups. But if shooting large groups, the mean of pairwise spreads with an SD does convey information about the distribution.

If there are programs/apps that give a center to spread of shots, this type of calculation of mean is essentially being performed and SD from this center would also be useful.

Saw some interesting groupings at the range today with distinct ammo preferences between a CZ 512 and Ruger American Predator in 22WMR at 100 yards shooting 10 shot groups with three different ammo types. If I was just shooting one of the rifles, I might have thought that brand X wasn't particularly good (and perhaps the large grouping reflected variability in production between rounds in the same lot), but this would have been incorrect, as the rifle was a contributing factor.

After I annotate targets, I'll post the pics later so perhaps someone else can evaluate the distributions.

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  #139  
Old 11-04-2018, 08:10 PM
jaia
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If you want to analyze results, don't use groups.
Go to a one dot one shot target, then run your analysis.
50 shots, each with it's individual aimpoint and impact point.
Significantly more useful in identifying trends.

Last edited by jaia; 11-04-2018 at 08:41 PM.
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  #140  
Old 11-04-2018, 08:35 PM
fidelity

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Quote:
Originally Posted by jaia View Post
If you want to analyze results, don't use groups.
Go to a one dot one shot target, then run your analysis.
50 shots, each with it's individual aimpoint and impact point.
Significantly more useful in identifying trends.
While I see value in this, there's variability in moving around for the different sight pictures, and I want to take myself out of the picture as much as possible - thus one point of aim has its appeal as long as individual shots can be discerned in a grouping.

I did the following course of fire today and was thinking it was kind of stupid.

(1) off target, warm up shot for the RAR
(2) 5 shots of 45 gr Hornady Critical Defense for the RAR at Target A1
(3) off target, warm up shot for CZ 512
(4) 5 shots of 45 gr Hornady Critical Defense for the CZ 512 at Target B1
(5) 5 shots of 45 gr Hornady Critical Defense for the RAR at Target A1
(6) 5 shots of 45 gr Hornady Critical Defense for the CZ 512 at Target B1

(7) 5 shots of 33 gr Remington Accutips for the RAR at Target A2
(8) 5 shots of 33 gr Remington Accutips for the CZ 512 at Target B2
(9) 5 shots of 33 gr Remington Accutips for the RAR at Target A2
(10) 5 shots of 33 gr Remington Accutips for the CZ 512 at Target B2

(11) 5 shots of 30 gr Hornady V-Max for the RAR at Target A1
(12) 5 shots of 30 gr Hornady V-Max for the CZ 512 at Target B1
(13) 5 shots of 30 gr Hornady V-Max for the RAR at Target A1
(14) 5 shots of 30 gr Hornady V-Max for the CZ 512 at Target B1

I broke up the 10 shot groups to minimize barrel heating, but I only had one rest and limited time. So I would shoot 5 shots at one target with one rifle, 5 shots with the other rifle at a different target (thus fiddle with the rest significantly), and then return to the first target with the first rifle (fiddling with the rest again). I'm sure that I set up the rest slightly differently, was in a slightly different position with my cheek against the stock in completing a 10 shot group.

Anyway a post with targets on the stands next.

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  #141  
Old 11-04-2018, 08:41 PM
jaia
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Or, go to a distance where trajectory spread becomes so great
that 50 shots can be sent at a single aimpoint, without overlapping impact points.
Say 50 at 200 yards maybe?

https://www.rimfirecentral.com/forum....php?t=1129343

Plenty of actual results there and more to come.
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  #142  
Old 11-04-2018, 08:49 PM
fidelity

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Frederick IWLA range, 100 yards, mid 50s temp, 5 mph crosswind

Ruger American Predator 22 WMR
Vortex 4-12x scope

No adjustments were made to re-zero the scope on this trip

Top target (center point of aim), 1 inch squares

(A) Top group - 30 gr Hornady V-Max
(B) Bottom group - 45 gr Hornady Critical Defense

Bottom target (center point of aim), 1 inch squares

(C) 33 gr Remington Accutips

The 45 gr Hornady Critical Defense seemed to perform better in this rifle. Both polymer tipped ammo options were pretty disappointing. But let's not write them off yet, esp the 30 gr Hornady V-Max.

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  #143  
Old 11-04-2018, 08:55 PM
fidelity

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Frederick IWLA range, 100 yards, mid 50s temp, 5 mph crosswind

CZ 512 22 WMR
Weaver Grand Slam 3-12x scope

No adjustments were made to re-zero the scope on this trip. Parallax set at 100 yards.

Top target (center point of aim), 1 inch squares

(A) Top group - 30 gr Hornady V-Max
(B) Bottom group - 45 gr Hornady Critical Defense

Bottom target (center point of aim), 1 inch squares

(C) 33 gr Remington Accutips

The Hornady V-Max yielded a much tighter spread with this semi-automatic rifle. This type of result would be perfectly acceptable with one of my AR-15s in .223/5.56.

Both rifles might have 200 rounds through them, and I've never really spent time shooting more than quick 3 shot groups with the CZ 512 at 100 yards before. I'm pretty impressed with its performance.



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Last edited by fidelity; 11-04-2018 at 09:05 PM.
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  #144  
Old 11-05-2018, 08:45 AM
fidelity

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Found an app that does some basic analysis. The same images from above are marked up below. The winner for the CZ 512 (20.6 inch barrel) was Hornady V-Max with a 0.74 inch vertical spread over 10 shots (two 5-shot groups at the same point of aim). The winner for the Ruger American Predator (18 inch barrel) was Hornady Critical Defense with a 1.75 inch vertical spread at 100 yards over 10 shots (two 5-shot groups).

Notably, the Hornady Critical Defense shot lower from the Ruger American Predator vs the CZ 512, presumably because of reduced barrel length and possibly less velocity.

What stood out to me was the Hornady V-Max shot higher from the Ruger American Predator. Barrel harmonics? Could it be whipping/less rigid even if shorter?


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  #145  
Old 08-23-2019, 01:44 PM
jaia
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jaia View Post
Forgive me folks, I'm feeling a mite cantankerous this evening.

Been reading through the 22wmr forum and seeing what's what.
Awful lot of claims of moa and sub moa out to 100 yards.
Some of y'all have been a touch more realistic with 1.5 to 2 moa plus.
Then there's the "find the brand y'er rifle likes" cliche, which doesn't work, by the way.
So, truthfully, what kind of results does your rifle really produce?
Not for 3 shots...not for 5, not even 10...what happens on target for 50 consecutive shots?
Pick y'er distance, use whatever setup makes you happy...but shoot 50 shots.
Indoors, outdoors, one piece rest, whatever, but shoot 50 at a single target, use a chronograph to record the MV's.
Then take a careful look at that target, and then let's discuss the results.

I know, I'm an annoying old coot, but I prefer facts over exaggeration.

A year ago I apologized in advance.

I knew I was going to annoy and irritate the many 22wmr fans.

I still felt that the topic required a thorough airing out.
I've harassed, annoyed, challenged, even used facts and logic,
in an attempt to motivate those that brag about how accurate the cartridge is,
to provide some substantial proof of said accuracy. Some took it personally,
feeling it was an attack on their favorite cartridge or rifles. It wasn't.
I set up the 22wmr 50 at 100 yard challenge and then posted my results
in hopes that it might generate a response from those shooters with rifles capable of sub-moa results.
Have to tell you, if I had a rifle capable of consistent sub-moa at 100 yards,
there would have been no way I could have resisted the challenge, as irritating as I was being.
Would have been worth the 10 bucks and the time at the range to shut me down.
Can't say I didn't try to get the results out there, but no one took up the challenge.

I'm going to leave y'all to continue to discuss things here, without any further interference.
Remember, it wasn't personal, I did apologize in advance.
Simply an attempt to see some of those rifles produce consistent results as was being claimed.
Never once did I say that the rifles weren't capable.
My point was that the 22wmr ammunition being made and sold
was unable to provide the results that were being reported here.
I gave it year to see if it would happen, it didn't.

Y'all enjoy, I'll stay out of y'er hair from now on, down in the RFC long range forum.

Last edited by jaia; 08-23-2019 at 06:53 PM.
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  #146  
Old 08-23-2019, 03:59 PM
springer1
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Quote:
Quote:
Originally Posted by glennasher View Post
My rifle doesn't shoot well with a cold barrel, but once that barrel warms up, it can shoot under a 1/2" at 50 yards, with three different kinds of 40gr. ammo. It's a Ruger RAR 8352 (stainless). It's main attraction is that it carries and handles so well.
On the whole, I like my CZ 527 .22 Hornet better, but I can't argue about the accuracy once that barrel gets a couple of rounds thru it. It doesn't help it's hunting "chops" to have the first shot out of a cold barrel hit a bit "off", though.
Quote:
Maybe the answer isn't "hot or cold", maybe it likes a fouled barrel better to be more accurate? If this is the case, pre-fire it before hunting increasing your POI accuracy.
DR
Glennasher, have you noticed a 1st shot difference re: cleaning vs not cleaning after the previous shoot?
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  #147  
Old 08-23-2019, 06:34 PM
glennasher
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Originally Posted by springer1 View Post
Glennasher, have you noticed a 1st shot difference re: cleaning vs not cleaning after the previous shoot?
Not with the little Ruger, it's just not particularly accurate until the barrel gets warm. I am not a fanatic about cleaning the barrels of these little rifles, I don' t clean until I get extraction issues (not uncommon with the RARs at all).

I have since bought a CZ 512 American in .22WMR, and it's spot on all the time (I DO keep it clean, as I want to avoid any kaboooms that WMR autoloaders seem to encourage). So far, so good.
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  #148  
Old 08-25-2019, 10:34 AM
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apologies if this has been posted I am unable to load anything other than the last page:


https://www.mcarbo.com/22-wmr-ballistics-chart.aspx
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  #149  
Old 09-11-2019, 07:56 PM
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.22 WM accuracy

I've tried reading through thihs whole thread and gotten bogged down. but i have a question.

Has anyone reported on trying the techniques used by 22LR and 22 short match shooters for years?

That is sorting several boxes of the same lot by weight. I have don't that with my match 22 shorts for years since the mfg of REAL 22 short match ammo was discontinued. The theory is that the bullets and cases are fairly consistent, but that the powder charges vary----as is evident by vertical spread shooting in calm conditions.
I have not tried it yet with 22Wm. but I'm assuming that mfg conditions would be similar and there will probably be weight variations or +/_ 1.5 to 2 or even more grains over a few hundred cartridges. simply sorting them into batches based on maybe a .25 gr gradations should yield a more consistent velocity in each sorted group. I know it works for 22 rd. One of the best 22 rf offhand shooters I know used plain CCI standard plastic box ammo in his Ballard single shot. but he sorted them. I found it works in both the 22 LR and the Shorts, and at least in offhand shooting its as good as using the expensive high grade match ammo. I believe it might help with the 22WM also. maybe even the 17HMR.

Some of the real anal precision bench-rest shootesr have micrometer gauges set up to measure rim-thickness variations as well; with the idea that rim thickness variations might cause slight variations in primer ignition much like using randomly varying brands of primers in center fire cartridges.
I never did that since I was mostly shooting offhand and the human induced angle of dispersion masked any number of other micro-flaws in the ammo.
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  #150  
Old 09-11-2019, 08:39 PM
papalondog
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Gray digger was digging holes all over our orchard last week. Shot him in the head at 110 yards out the bedroom window with my Anschutz 1720 sporter barrel. Good enough.
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