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Old 08-18-2019, 06:56 AM
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Gonna try my first appleseed



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So one of the Ohio appleseed instructors is a member of our club, and got me a pass for next weekend.
I am excited, I have set a lofty goal, to make riflemen 3 times with 3 different rifles!
I got a metal at Perry in rimfire sporter, a couple medals in modern military at our local GSM matches, and a couple club championship in smallbore silhouette.
I am taking my AR22 (irons) my 10/22 (scope) & my RRA NM AR (irons)
I sooo want that riflemen patch to add to my shooting coat!
Next Saterday is my 50th birthday and I am hoping this will be an event to remember!

Anyone eels going to be at liberty center?

Aaron
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Old 08-18-2019, 07:15 AM
Bill_in_TR
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Best of luck. It appears you are already a somewhat accomplished shooter. I hope you succeed in your goal. One thing I like about Appleseed is that you are only competing against yourself.
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Old 08-20-2019, 05:49 AM
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Earning that Rifleman patch is a worthy goal, sounds like you have the skills to earn one!
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Old 08-21-2019, 06:41 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 55fairlane View Post
So one of the Ohio appleseed instructors is a member of our club, and got me a pass for next weekend.
I am excited, I have set a lofty goal, to make riflemen 3 times with 3 different rifles!
I got a metal at Perry in rimfire sporter, a couple medals in modern military at our local GSM matches, and a couple club championship in smallbore silhouette.
I am taking my AR22 (irons) my 10/22 (scope) & my RRA NM AR (irons)
I sooo want that riflemen patch to add to my shooting coat!
Next Saterday is my 50th birthday and I am hoping this will be an event to remember!

Anyone eels going to be at liberty center?

Aaron
If you medaled at Perry in Sporter, you will absolutely do just fine on the 25 meter Appleseed AQT.

Two points of advice for you:

1. Appleseed AQT incorporates several targets that must be engaged, and requires one to "shift" their natural point of aim (think swing shooter in ITT/Rattle Battle if you are familiar with that match). For seated and prone, you will need to engage more than one target. Just make sure you actually rotate around your spine for seated and rotate around your support elbow for prone (i.e. don't muscle the rifle) and you will be fine.

2. The "times" are a little faster for rapid fire, but it should not be an issue.

I compete in CMP and NRA stuff as well, and enjoy the occasional Appleseed event as we shoot A LOT compared to a standard CMP match. You will get a LOT of rounds downrange.

Have fun, and let us know how it went for you!

OH....and you get to use a Hasty Sling for Offhand/Standing, but you really do not need to.

R/
Chris
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Last edited by navybowhunter; 08-21-2019 at 06:46 AM.
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Old 08-21-2019, 03:36 PM
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You might want to familiarize yourself a bit with the course of fire of the AQT used by Appleseed. There are four stages of fire. All but the first stage involve shooting at multiple target silhouettes.

The first stage (slow fire standing) is pretty straightforward. Ten shots with one magazine at one target silhouette.

I am perhaps easily confused, but I found that after the first stage, things could get a little confusing.

For the rapid fire stages 2 and 3, you will only have to transition from standing to sitting (or kneeling), or standing to prone one time. But you will need to perform a rapid magazine change and engage multiple target silhouettes.

What I found confusing was that the number of shots taken on the target silhouettes was different between the second, third and fourth stages. In the second stage, rapid fire sitting, you shoot at two silhouettes, five shots each for a total of ten, with a magazine change with the first silhouette after the first two shots.

For the third stage, rapid fire prone, you will engage three different silhouettes but now you will place only three shots on the first (and second) target silhouettes with a magazine change during the first silhouette.

For the fourth stage, slow fire prone, there is no transition, no magazine change and plenty of time. But you will now shoot at four different silhouettes, placing only two shots on the first two and three on the second two.

With my first couple of AQTs I found myself getting "programmed" by the preceding stage which resulted in me placing five shots on the first target in the third stage (instead of three), and three shots on the first target of the fourth stage (instead of two).
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Old 08-24-2019, 09:58 PM
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So I did it! Shot my first set of red coats "clean" with my AR22 (irons) Shot the little black square with both my AR22 and my RRA NM AR , switched back and forth between rifles on the green coats.....then I made riflemen twice in one dat with both my AR22 and RRA NM AR ......I do not know if this is good training for CMP/ NRA matches or if CMP/ NRA matches are good training for this,but I had a great time and this shoot was so well worth the time!
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Old 08-25-2019, 08:06 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 55fairlane View Post
So I did it! Shot my first set of red coats "clean" with my AR22 (irons) Shot the little black square with both my AR22 and my RRA NM AR , switched back and forth between rifles on the green coats.....then I made riflemen twice in one dat with both my AR22 and RRA NM AR ......I do not know if this is good training for CMP/ NRA matches or if CMP/ NRA matches are good training for this,but I had a great time and this shoot was so well worth the time!
Awesome!

I would say that CMP/NRA experience compliments Appleseed.

Appleseed does help with CMP Rimfire Sporter, if you shoot standing without a sling for the Appleseed events.

Either way, trigger time in positions is always a good thing.

For me, Appleseed was my introduction to competitive rifle shooting, and Appleseed led me to CMP competition.

I do feel that anyone that has scored "Rifleman" in Appleseed, is ready to start competing in CMP/NRA matches. There are differences obviously in target sizes, the course of fire and the times allotted for each course of fire....but it does get one "ready enough" for it.

Glad to hear you had a great experience at your first event.

R/
Chris
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  #8  
Old 08-26-2019, 06:08 AM
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55Fairlane, congratulations! As far as good training for High Power, I think it is. For XTC, the course of fire is almost the same, except you're not shooting standing slow fire at 200 or slow fire at 600.
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Old 08-26-2019, 06:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MacGhillemohr View Post
55Fairlane, congratulations! As far as good training for High Power, I think it is. For XTC, the course of fire is almost the same, except you're not shooting standing slow fire at 200 or slow fire at 600.
I'll disagree on this a bit.

Seeing as I do both AS and HP, AS can actually breed very bad habits for HP shooting.

I will agree that any trigger time and position work time, is EXCELLENT, but that is about it.

Target sizes are VERY different. Aiming for "All V's" can help for HP though.

COF is also very different, with the NPA shifts between multiple targets.

Rapid Fire times are different, and times are a lot less in Appleseed. Also....if the line bosses in AS call "time remaining" that can actually develop a BAD habit in HP, cause the shooter will be thinking about the clock.

Shooting with the use of a sling for standing can also breed very bad habits for HP.

Shooting without the use of the coat can also affect one in HP.

I recall my first Across the course (200/300 and 600 yards) match, it was after 2 years in the AS program.....and it went like this:

Standing was DEPLORABLE...LOL, becasue I never learned to shoot without the use of the sling.

Rapids at 200/300 yards were "OK", but the scores were in the 70s to 80s, not at all very competitive. I actually was wondering why the match director was not calling "time remaining", LOL

600 Slow Prone was my strongest, but...that was also mid to high 80s in score.

AS is a GREAT primer for anyone considering HP rifle, but I like to be realistic as well. I know SEVERAL instructors in AS that have taken up the HP rifle journey, and many of them have contacted me to say: "WOW....NOW I see what you were talking about".

HP is a tough sport, and a tough journey if one has a goal set on say making High Master or earning their Distinguished Rifle badge.

Appleseed will give a lot of the basic fundamentals, but the Small Arms Firing Schools (SAFS) or your local high power rifle range will give you EVERYTHING you need if your desire is to be successful at HP.

Going from HP to AS events....after competing in HP for awhile...,, your AS Scores will ABSOLUTELY improve.

Just my .02 cents on it.

Going from AS to HP can be humbling, just want to ensure we set realistic expectations. It also appears that the OP is an NRA/CMP competitor....so I was not at all suprised he did well.

R/
Chris
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  #10  
Old 08-26-2019, 07:08 AM
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What Appleseed Will give one with a possible desire for NRA/CMP Competition:

I often tell folks, that are curious or considering CMP/NRA HP competition, to give Appleseed a shot.

I'll even use my 10 yr old daughter as an example of this.

If one enjoys the 3 position shooting and challenge that the AS course of fire is, and can get into all the positions and score fairly well....Chances are good, that they will really enjoy CMP or NRA HP rifle.

My daughter Shannon started at Appleseed last August. She loved it and loved the challenge of trying to "Earn" something, in this case the Rifleman patch.

What that showed me as her Father/Coach, is that she "Could do it".....she could get in positions, and compete.

So...I started her in HP Rifle this past February.

She earned her across the course Expert classification yesterday! Unreal, 10 yrs old and an across the course Expert. She missed a Master score by only 2 points, she shot a 750 on her 3rd 800 agg for the Expert card.

So...YES, AS can prepare one for HP rifle, but as I mentioned above (very briefly), there are a LOT of differences between the 2, and they are very different courses of fire.

Another Example is the AS "4 MOA" standard. Well, that really only applies to the slow prone AS targets, because everything else is SIGNIFICANTLY larger than 4 MOA.

4 MOA slow prone in CMP or NRA HP at 600 yards, is an 80% score. Not even Sharpshooter, it is a Marksman score.

That is the biggest difference.

R/
Chris
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Old 08-26-2019, 06:58 PM
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What I was getting at, is that the two are similar enough to benefit the other. I am both an AS shooter and a former HP competitor. Actually, not former any longer, after a five year hiatus from Highpower, I competed in an Mid Range Prone(600 yards) on 24 August 19, in Memphis, TN. I shot well enough to get first place in my class(Service Rifle). I always competed before with an M14, but since the eyes took a sudden nosedive, I had to give up HP. Fortunately for me, scoped black rifles are allowed for HP, so I'm getting back in the saddle.

For me, AS works as practice for HP, especially for XTC. I do know the differences. As usual, ymmv.

Last edited by MacGhillemohr; 08-26-2019 at 10:00 PM.
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  #12  
Old 08-28-2019, 07:08 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MacGhillemohr View Post
What I was getting at, is that the two are similar enough to benefit the other. I am both an AS shooter and a former HP competitor. Actually, not former any longer, after a five year hiatus from Highpower, I competed in an Mid Range Prone(600 yards) on 24 August 19, in Memphis, TN. I shot well enough to get first place in my class(Service Rifle). I always competed before with an M14, but since the eyes took a sudden nosedive, I had to give up HP. Fortunately for me, scoped black rifles are allowed for HP, so I'm getting back in the saddle.

For me, AS works as practice for HP, especially for XTC. I do know the differences. As usual, ymmv.
Glad to hear your getting back into competition!

Well...I'll agree that AS will compliment "Mid Range Prone" matches, of which are high power matches.

Those are "prone only" matches, and do not involve shooting standing or rapid fire seated (or prone), it is all slow fire prone.

For those that are unaware, Mid Range is anything 600 yards and in. The 600 yard target is actually designated the MR target (for Mid Range).

I found that interesting when I first started competing, as I would have thought anything past 300 yards was LONG range! LOL

Mid range is a tough sport, especially with a standard service rifle that is abiding by the rules set for across the course (XTC) HP rifle (limited to a 4.5X optic).

I use my XTC rifle with a sling, and shoot the MR matches when my schedule allows, it is GREAT slow prone and wind reading practice.

But...

One can also use a match rifle (with a 20X scope, or whatever the rules specify) and still compete on the same MR target.

Many MR matches are combined with Palma shooters (Palma is .308 iron sights), and F Class shooters with the fancy $3000 rifle rests and such.

The F class shooters shoot on the F Class target, where the X ring is less than 1 MOA (Think it is 3/4 MOA but don't quote me on that).

So...
Agreed, AS will absolutely compliment "slow prone" shooting be that XTC or Mid Range, as that X/10 ring combined is 2 MOA.

I do not think it really helps with standing at all....and any HP shooter would likely agree with that.

Either way, likely splitting hairs here....to the OPs post, I think it is the opposite, HP compliments AS performance a LOT more than AS will ever compliment HP performance.

But, it is always good to get trigger time in position.

R/
Chris
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