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Old 07-23-2019, 09:46 AM
abeltbuckle
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CCI SV too cheap to barrel tune?



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I got a harrel barrel tuner on order and a very strong KIDD build to shoot it with. Will I have trouble tuning my barrel for CCI SV considering it is such cheap ammo and should see reasonably large velocity deviations?

Of course, it should take reasonably longer to tune, but will it even be worth my time?

Last edited by abeltbuckle; 07-23-2019 at 10:09 AM.
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Old 07-23-2019, 11:39 AM
jaia
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Up front, my knowledge of tuners is minimal.
I've read the instructions, tried a couple of benchrest annies with tuners
but never actually owned one or worked through the process of setting one up.
Conversations at the range with the serious benchrest guys are all I can repeat.
From their end, a tuner has a specific mv range it works with.
Exceed that mv band, the compensation provided by the tuner
isn't enough to overcome the effects of gravity and time of flight.
A tuner helps, but isn't a cure for poor quality ammo.
It won't fix cartridge defects, only helps with a limited amount of mv spread.
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Old 07-23-2019, 11:45 AM
abeltbuckle
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I'm not averse to buying more expensive and consistent ammo, and I will be now and again to satiate my vanity, but I realize I'll spend most of my time shooting the cheaper stuff so why not refine that experience as much as possible?
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Old 07-23-2019, 11:47 AM
jaia
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Understood.
Check in with the RFC benchrest forum and the folks that use tuners.
They'll be able to offer better information than I can.
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Old 07-23-2019, 11:49 AM
karls42

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There is more wrong with cheap ammo than just velocity variations.
for instance a tuner won't cure variations in bullet weights, diameters. or rim thickness.
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Old 07-23-2019, 03:48 PM
abeltbuckle
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Originally Posted by karls42 View Post
There is more wrong with cheap ammo than just velocity variations.
for instance a tuner won't cure variations in bullet weights, diameters. or rim thickness.
Yeah, I wasn't expecting it to compare to match ammo and I don't expect it to accommodate for the other properties which makes match ammo superior, but I am interested to see just how tight I can get groups at around 5 cents a round.

It's a whimsical pursuit which captures the spirit of 22lr
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Old 07-23-2019, 04:27 PM
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There is another issue. If your barrel a typical .920 in the 18 inch range you are going to find it very difficult to tune. The larger diameter and shorter a barrel is, the less responsive it will be to a tuner. As already pointed out, a tuner won't make cheap ammo into match ammo. A tuner works best with a narrow velocity spread. It isn't so much the actual velocity but the spread. To be effective, the velocity spread should be less than 40 FPS and more ideal less than 30FPS.
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Old 07-23-2019, 04:52 PM
abeltbuckle
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Originally Posted by MKnarr View Post
There is another issue. If your barrel a typical .920 in the 18 inch range you are going to find it very difficult to tune. The larger diameter and shorter a barrel is, the less responsive it will be to a tuner. As already pointed out, a tuner won't make cheap ammo into match ammo. A tuner works best with a narrow velocity spread. It isn't so much the actual velocity but the spread. To be effective, the velocity spread should be less than 40 FPS and more ideal less than 30FPS.
I got a 20" .920" KIDD bull barrel. I hadn't yet considered that it may be too short to tune, but I might compensate with a heavier tuner yes?

and yes, the velocity deviation of CCI SV maybe just too much to tune. I was hoping to feel that out. I wasn't able to find recent chronograph results for CCI SV out of a 20" barrel to see how the spreads compare to commonly tuned ammos, but if anyone might have those, it'd really give me reason to feel either way about this project.

Last edited by abeltbuckle; 07-23-2019 at 04:56 PM.
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Old 07-23-2019, 05:10 PM
jaia
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Chrony numbers? Gotcha covered and then some...

https://www.rimfirecentral.com/forum....php?t=1129343

Scroll down to the CCI links
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Old 07-23-2019, 05:38 PM
abeltbuckle
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Originally Posted by jaia View Post
Chrony numbers? Gotcha covered and then some...

https://www.rimfirecentral.com/forum....php?t=1129343

Scroll down to the CCI links
If the Extreme speed deviations are anything like the standard deviations you have recorded for your Eley Tenex and CCI SV tests, it would appear my target for tuning CCI SV is about 2-3 times larger than tuning for quality match ammo. I'm not sure whether this would make the spread to large too fit inside a typical harmonic frequency band someone would shoot for with these tuners, or if it might eclipse multiple bands(at which point tuning would be more or less pointless).
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Old 07-23-2019, 05:50 PM
jaia
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It all depends on y'er luck in the retail ammo lottery.
Will you get a decent brick or one that is barely plinking ammo?
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Old 07-23-2019, 07:02 PM
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I'll give you my recent experience shooting CCI Standard velocity. The platform: Cooper TRP-3 pillar bedded with a Jard 2oz. trigger. March 48x52 High Master scope. Harrell tuner tuned by the Purdy Rx. Pappas one piece rest. Last IR 50/50 match I shot a 250-12x shooting Eley Tenex. So, just for kicks, I shot some CCI SV in the rifle. It would have been a good pattern for a full choke .410 bore shotgun. The Cooper did everything but spit the CCI out when I tried to load it.
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Old 07-23-2019, 08:14 PM
Hi-NV Shooter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by abeltbuckle View Post
I got a harrel barrel tuner on order and a very strong KIDD build to shoot it with. Will I have trouble tuning my barrel for CCI SV considering it is such cheap ammo and should see reasonably large velocity deviations?

Of course, it should take reasonably longer to tune, but will it even be worth my time?
IMO, the controlling the bolt opening rate will greatly effect trying to tune a 10/22

to fast or inconsistent opening and you get a inconsistent drop in velocity that will affect POI. along with bolt movement will act like a secondary vibration.

also you would need a tuner again IMO that is less than 4-oz. most likely in the 3-3-1/2 oz. range

Lee
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Old 07-24-2019, 10:23 AM
abeltbuckle
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Originally Posted by Hi-NV Shooter View Post
IMO, the controlling the bolt opening rate will greatly effect trying to tune a 10/22

to fast or inconsistent opening and you get a inconsistent drop in velocity that will affect POI. along with bolt movement will act like a secondary vibration.

also you would need a tuner again IMO that is less than 4-oz. most likely in the 3-3-1/2 oz. range

Lee
I do hope to trial different recoil springs during my tests.

I wish I had slow mo footage of a 10/22 shooting because there should be two schools of thought about which recoil springs might improve accuracy the most.
You'd either be looking for the lightest recoil spring which would keep the bolt from striking the buffer during operation(and still cycle the gun), assuming the buffer is struck before the bullet exits the barrel(and this would be the largest vibration).
Likewise, you could look for the lightest recoil spring which would still keep the bolt from striking the buffer before the bullet exits the barrel(and still cycle the gun).
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Old 07-24-2019, 11:52 AM
Squeezer
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Quote:
Originally Posted by abeltbuckle View Post
...and yes, the velocity deviation of CCI SV may be just too much to tune. I was hoping to feel that out. I wasn't able to find recent chronograph results for CCI SV out of a 20" barrel to see how the spreads compare to commonly tuned ammos, but if anyone might have those, it'd really give me reason to feel either way about this project.
I have tested three lots of CCI SV through my CZ455 Varmint (20.9") and my Shooting Chrony Beta with the following results:

Lot #D30U55 (mfd 4/30/2013):
Extreme Spread:70 fps
Mean Velocity: 1,056 fps
Standard Deviation: 14.19 fps

Lot #G29X82 (7/29/2016):
Extreme Spread:57 fps
Mean Velocity: 1,090 fps
Standard Deviation: 11.72 fps

Lot #A03Y82 (1/3/2017):
Extreme Spread: 54 fps
Mean Velocity: 1,070 fps
Standard Deviation: 11.67 fps

Groups ranged from 1.38 MOA to 1.74 MOA at various distances.
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