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WHY I SHOOT

9K views 70 replies 28 participants last post by  pump .22s 
#1 ·
This is why I shoot 22lr benchrest. Many years ago I shot all the time with my 52's, 40X's, Anschutz, Walther, Martini. They were all pretty darn accurate. Then I discovered what real accuracy was when I got my first custom and those old rifles haven't seen daylight since. I can't stand to shoot "good enough" or "that's great for a factory gun". If I shoot a target it will be with the intention of scoring the highest possible score I can no excuses or handicap. Why I hate competing in anything that has class levels, who wants to be #1 in the C class. Just me and maybe I am too competitive but why even do it if you don't want to be the best you can.

ARA--PSL--IR50 and the rest you are at the highest level of competition there is. There are no "classes" and all are in the same boat every match and how you shoot is how well you shoot. John
 
#2 · (Edited)
I partly agree with what you say, but we all set the standards for what we enjoy or don't enjoy. As a teenager I liked the music other teenagers liked....because they liked it. Now I'm older and like music because I like it....regardless of other's preferences. As to your question, "Why even do it if you don't want to be the best you can?", a lot of folks would be knocked out even trying if the only reasonable and worthwhile goal was to be the absolute best of the total of all those trying regardless of expense or equipment. Many folks, including myself, don't have have a lot of resources to allocate to pursuing the ultimate accuracy goal....so what do they do?...... just give up and find something else to do? Is there something inherently wrong with folks that set their own goals based on their specific means and preferences? If everyone agreed that the only worthwhile accuracy goal was ultimate accuracy by any means, then a lot of shooters would not have much reason to pursue accuracy shooting with their rifles.

As I've stated previously in other posts, my passion is shooting the heavy factory guns and getting the most out of them I can....and has been for near forty years. I know there are lots of custom built guns that are more accurate, but that doesn't bother me in the least.....no more than the guy with a vintage Corvette is bothered by the fact that a modern NASCAR racer can leave him in the dust. My dad taught me to set reasonable goals, do my best, and not sweat what other folks were doing....they are they, and I'm me. Now, like you, I'm just stating what I like and what pushes the right buttons for me, and this is in no way an indictment of your or anyone's opinions. But the notion that there is something second class about folks who pursue the ultimate accuracy in factory guns or some such that is not top of the line custom bench guns strikes me as a bit snobbish. But I can't argue much with someone's personal preferences, and I do respect your viewpoints. As you stated, there was a time when you enjoyed getting maximum accuracy out of factory guns. Now you've changed your goals and moved on. That doesn't mean other folks should do the same....until they feel the desire to. :D
 
#3 ·
John, you found the key to the liquor cabinet?

Different people have different goals in life. And different likes, tastes, passions, abilities, and resources. If we were all the same, we'd be the same.

We talked about this down at the barn. Your goals and my goals are completely different in this little game. I respect what you're striving for and hope you get there. And am sure others feel the same.

Not sure anyone that's seriously into BR shooting really understands what I'm here for. But that's not for them to understand anyway. It's all on me, and I'm fine with where I'm at, what I'm doing, where I'm going and how I get there. The reason I say all of this, is that there are a lot of people just like me. Well, sort of like me...well, possibly like me in some ways...maybe?:eek:

There are a few things in each person's life that are of utmost importance to them. Neat that we get to choose our goals in life. Not sure how far up the list that being the best at shooting a 22 rifle in BR competition is.

Anyway, James pretty much said it all above. And I agree with him completely.

At the end of the day, we do what we do, and we live with who we are. What makes us happy is good and I can't find fault with how others find their joy. Unless it involves dachshunds. They freak me out!

See you soon John. And save something from the cabinet. We can have one of our "great minds at work" talks. Or just enjoy seeing one another again and having a laugh at each other's expense.

Oh, side note...grab some lighter fluid. In case your guys win Saturday. If it happens, there's sofas to be burned!

Kenny
 
#4 ·
I shoot to overcome my distracting demons and to have the magic happen now and then.
ymmv
 
#5 ·
Why I Shoot

Oh John. Don't take this as anything except my reason for shooting ARA. I have competed in many different shooting disciplines in my 71 years on earth and have had moments of "being the best". While those moments are memorable, all totaled they were only moments. Maybe the modern Olympic creed expressed by its founder Pierre de Coubertin says it best: "The most important thing. . . is not winning but taking part".

I have just finished my first year of ARA and have been to the line with many of the best. Never met one that didn't have words of encouragement for me or anyone else who went to the trouble to "show up and shoot". The ARA is full of great people who I enjoy being around. I want to shoot as well as I possibly can and make my best effort on every shot. That's all I can do and I enjoy the heck out of it. Going to Lake Providence on the 8th and Frog level on the 15th. Who knows, lightning could strike.
 
#6 ·
Well I knew this would be a can of worms. What makes me go is the struggle and the journey. If I call myself a mountain climber it's because I intend to go to the summit not stop half way up and say that's good enough. To me the whole point of putting a scope on a rifle and shooting at a target is a natural progression with sports like ARA and the PSL being the summit. If you have a choice why would anyone not want to shoot ARA.
 
#7 ·
Well I knew this would be a can of worms. What makes me go is the struggle and the journey. If I call myself a mountain climber it's because I intend to go to the summit not stop half way up and say that's good enough. To me the whole point of putting a scope on a rifle and shooting at a target is a natural progression with sports like ARA and the PSL being the summit. If you have a choice why would anyone not want to shoot ARA.
The answer to that question, in my mind, is your title to this thread...."Why I Shoot". Why you shoot and why I shoot and why the next person shoots aren't necessarily for the same reasons, nor are we necessarily seeking the same rewards. What flips our switches is seldom going to be exactly the same thing.....and there is not a thing wrong with that.

As far as opening a can of worms.....naaah....:D
 
#8 ·
Not a can of worms at all! And do understand what you're trying to say. I just think not all people look at things the same. And some can't reach for that summit, even if they wanted. So, everyone has their own motivations and goals in this. And their goals are sometimes tempered by what they can afford. Really, if we want to cut to the chase, available resources are what prohibits most from even trying to really get into this heavy. You personally know what it takes to get to the top. We can all dance around it, but the elephant in the room is money. It takes lots of it to reach a certain level. Ammo testing, component testing, travel fees, match fees and the component fees themselves. Then, add in the time involved.

You want to win when the lights are on? Wearing the big boy pants costs money. You think Morrell, Harper, Miller, Donovan etc shoot second hand guns? Do they gamble and buy two or three boxes of different lots of ammo to test. Then, save and buy a brick or two of what looks best for matches? Do they buy one barrel, have it put on and hope for the best? If it doesn't work, do they just keep it or find another barrel? To outsiders, this stuff probably never crosses their minds. But going to the matches, seeing these guys shoot and seeing how they approach this game, it opens your eyes. Nothing against them at all. They've got the resources to do this and they take advantage of them. Would be stupid on their part if they didn't. But you and I both know not everyone can do this. So, the average person saves, cuts corners in other aspects of their life and then does the best they can when they do go to a match. If that means they shoot factory guns, fine by me. As long as they understand what's happening, and don't get disappointed, it's a great thing IMHO. But I can't fault them for the guns they use, the reasons they're there or how they do. Most are just average people doing the best they can with what is available to them.

I like to shoot, period. Winning isn't the main goal in this to me. Do I like it when I do win? Yes, of course I do. But, what do I get when I win? The PSL has money involved. That's a motivator to most. But in all honesty, you win or do really well and you might get a trophy. Or, you might get a sheet of paper printed off saying you did great. Doubt many do this for the trophies, and know for sure most don't do it for a printed piece of paper. Why we do this is a personal thing. And everyone has their own reasons for being there at a match. If they don't match our reasons, who's to say they're wrong or we're right?

Anyway, we'll talk next time we shoot with one another. Hope you and your family have a happy Thanksgiving. Hope to see you do well at Slicks. Buster Blue and Hollywood will be there. I'm stuck in VA.

I could never call you snobby or infer a trip to the liquor cabinet for a post about supporting organised, sanctioned RFBR matches. ......Scott
Why not? Seriously doubt John has an issue with me. As much as we jab back and forth with one another, doubt he's curled up in the fetal position somewhere in a dark recess of an underground bunker. Matter of fact, he's probably thinking of some way to jab me back. Besides, he's a friend of Rhett's. And one thing Rhett is good at is burying the bodies. So, I know not to go too far over the line with either!

As far as the liquor cabinet...you've evidently never had the pleasure of sampling what he keeps in that cabinet.

Kenny
 
#9 ·
Well it is a can of worms and it was my intention to stir things up a bit. I have found myself questioning why I even do this. Which is a good thing as we all probably need to take a step back once in a while. There is a group of people making good $$$ helping people keep their brains straight and any high level sport can drive you there. There lies the reasoning of my post and from a step back can we take a 100% objective view of why we shoot what we shoot, or why and what we don't shoot.

As for the cost I'm not buying that argument. I would guess that everyone reading this thread has guns they haven't shot in a year or more that would equal or exceed that cost. Now are there guys that spend a ton of $$$, sure but we know you don't have to go that route to have some success and a good time.

And Kenny you're a non-issue. Sorry to burst your bubble.
 
#10 ·
I knew when I saw your post last night that it had the potential to stir up a hornet's nest. I'm glad that didn't happen and if your intentions were to stir things up a bit....I think you've succeeded!

Those that know you well enough are perfectly comfortable with about anything you might say, and from the discussions we've had, you also know I was once an obsessively competitive shooter in other shooting disciplines where I excelled. But, you also know at this point in my competitive shooting career, I'm more like Kenny.

Good Lord! Did I really make a comparison with Kenny! Is that a good or a bad thing! LOL

Hope everyone has a great Thanksgiving,
Landy
 
#11 ·
Landy, you might want to re evaluate things if you're riding in the wagon I'm in:)

John, didn't know I had a bubble:D Don't have an issue with you or your opinions about any of this. Suppose we're just on opposite sides of the fence on some things. Anyway, good luck with your shooting going forward. Good luck in GA. Looks like they're going to have ARA in VA this winter. Hope to see you there.

Kenny
 
#16 ·
ARA in VA

Landy, you might want to re evaluate things if you're riding in the wagon I'm in:)

John, didn't know I had a bubble:D Don't have an issue with you or your opinions about any of this. Suppose we're just on opposite sides of the fence on some things. Anyway, good luck with your shooting going forward. Good luck in GA. Looks like they're going to have ARA in VA this winter. Hope to see you there.

Kenny
Kenny,,, is there any news that you can share. I miss shooting ARA at Piney Hills

Greg S.
 
#12 · (Edited)
I just saw this post after replying to another that addressed the same issue basically and Kenny and I are on the same page regarding the cost associated with winning and getting a high scoring card and pointing up your score.I'm willing to bet after you look at the total cost including,gas,food,amo,hotels,etc you could easly be into the $20-30K range

I used to run a circuit shooting billiards many yrs ago.Did quite well actually won on a team oriented National Championship in Vegas and competed locally losing and winning a decent share of money in side games,etc.In the end it cost me a lot,for what, about a dozen trophys and loss of time with family I'll never get back.

It is what you make of it.I'll probably do what I did back then ,compete for a while,see where it goes and find another sport or something to occupy my time.

Don't get me wrong I love this sport,started way back H.S. shooting team sports and had quit till about 4 yrs ago,then bought a Kimber 82 and tried my hand at it.It is fun,thats why I do it,the camaradry,the sportmanship,just plain having fun win or lose is all I need,No championship necessary for me and I'll never spend the kind of money necessary to win a big National,just isn't in the cards.

I know John,we chat on occassion and I have a high repect for him,Kenny and many,many others and have been given the great opportunity to compete with them .

In the end its all about having a good time,when that stops and it becomes a chore then I'll move on to something else possibly,maybe sharkfishing:)
 
#14 ·
OK got that stir stick. Equipment and $$$$. This game is mostly a head game. I am thinking the overall level of equipment of the top finishing shooters isn't superior enough to account for the differences of finish. Winners win mostly because they are better shooters, have a will to win and are more competitive. They are able to maintain a high level of concentration throughout a target and the match and when the difference is usually one or two shots per target 100s vs 50s that is what counts at the end of the day. This part of the game doesn't cost you any $ at all, it's free.

See my thread The Benchrest Road.

One thing I see is an overall decrease in the competitive spirit. A person who wants to win is looked upon as having an undesirable mindset. If you don't have the will to excel then you are doomed at the start. One way to get a clear perspective is to look through the eyes of a child. Has any person reading this and playing sports as a kid ever aspired to be mid-pack or just average? Time and experience has a way of beating us down but it doesn't have to be that way. My two cents. John
 
#15 ·
I shoot because I enjoy trying to improve my shooting and equipment as I learn more about this sport.

My dad and son also shoot benchrest matches too. The highlight of my year was when we finished 1st 2nd and 3rd at our local club unlimited match, with guns my dad built. The people I have met while shooting are a great bunch of guys.

I shot 2 ARA matches this fall, and am planning on shooting more. There is a lot to for me to learn, which is the challenge I like. I shoot try to improve some aspect of my shooting each time. I compete against my own personal best score trying to measure my improvements.

With all that said, I shoot because its fun, challenging and the camaraderie!
 
#17 ·
Why I shoot - Reasons are many but simply because I love firearms & the challenge of hitting dots at 50 or 100yrs.

In another life, I got the same buzz trying to put mortar/howitzer rds on target or hitting an DTL/ABT clay travelling at 50/60 odd miles an hour, think it's in the blood at this stage. Now too old and battered to chase gundogs or shoot DTL/ABT with a 12G all-day, rim-fire BR suits me & my pocket just fine.

Unlike others here, I only shoot local club comps (heavy factory std <15lbs) and don't travel. It's a great day out, fresh air and exercise for the body, mind and soul, shoot a few cards, shoot the breeze with like-minded people, hope to best your last score, a place is great, a win better still, if you're lucky enough to be placed/win ahead of a custom rig, the happiness levels are greatly increased, always nice to be top dog in the pound with bragging rights even if it's only for five minutes.

My tuppence worth says it's a great sport and pastime, expensive for some, not so for others; it all depends on what level you want to compete at. Some want high end custom rigs, others not. What floats my boat is trying to make an old heavy factory std rifle sing. Frustrating at times :cuss:, always a challenge :banghead3 but magic does happen……:):)

One thing for sure, it's better than watching a box in the corner showing endless repeats and reality tv shows any day. If it helps the grey matter from going into hibernating or worse deteriorating, all the better, happy days. :bthumb:

Giz
"There are only two tragedies in life: one is not getting what one wants, and the other is getting it". - Oscar Wilde
 
#19 ·
Here in Australia

Why I shoot ?
I have always loved to shoot since being a kid then through my working life and stupid strict laws here in Australia I didn't shoot for many years.
Found it again whilst getting a gun license so my son could enjoy the simple pleasure of shooting an air rifle, like I did as a kid.
He didn't take to it as I had but I sure did rediscover a lost gem.

The bloke at the gun shop asked me along and I was hooked, competition I do love.
Though I will never be able to live over in the USA and shoot against all you lot regularly, I sure am looking forward to coming back next year and doing the Triple Crown again
Why come so far to shoot ?
Because you blokes are the best, there is no doubt about that in my mind and I found that your a pretty good bunch of blokes as well.
We couldn't be able to come without much help from very generous people like Slick Willy (Bill Casey) he is truly one in a million and last time Kenny even loaned his favourite rest to Digs .
Paul T loaned us his flags we were able to speak to so many very good people that accepted us like family.
I was kind of star struck and humbled getting so much help off so many super stars of benchrest shooting not one of them were anything but nice.
I even got to shoot Kennys Trident and spend some time listening to Mikes stories.
Even getting to go up to where Kenny,Mike and Don live this time and shoot Piney Hill with them and just hang out.
Probably come home being able to speak fluent mountain talk.
To top the whole trip off I got to win a Trident action and go and see Jerry Stillers workshop and speak to him about all things rimfire, even asked him to build me a rifle which is really something special.

We have a competition here in Australia as well that is very competitive and a terrific bunch of blokes to shoot against
Which I try to get to as many competitions as I can get away with
But like John said I to always go to win, but seems like most of my mates have exactly the same idea.

Inconsiderate buggers aren't they
 
#20 ·
.............. and stupid strict laws here in Australia.............. But like John said I to always go to win, but seems like most of my mates have exactly the same idea. Inconsiderate buggers aren't they
Greetings to all down-under. :bthumb:

I thought we were the only ones with stupid strict firearms laws.

Anyhow, you meet some great people on the bench line and as you say, we all like to win be it top end or just local club matches.

Giz.
 
#21 ·
I appreciate the tone of this thread and have a lot of respect for John and the other posters here. So many threads of this nature degenerate rapidly into heated arguments that quickly drift off course. I've never met John, but I always read his threads for what insight he has to offer. I may not agree with every thing he says, but that doesn't prevent me from respecting what he has to say.


His point (I think) seems to be that he needs to shoot at the highest levels of competition, mine is that I don't need to in order to obtain enjoyment and satisfaction. Those are both viable viewpoints in my opinion.


Kenny, I'm thinking of making a deal with you to write my posts for me.....you do a better job of saying what I'm thinking than I do sometimes.....:D
 
#25 ·
"Can of worms" just fry them till their crispy...
I won't be at Slick's, too many irons in the fire right now. So Paul is going to have to find his way alone.
You better hope he doesn't get lost. Will miss all of you.
Just so folks reading all of this understand the banter and poking going on, these boys are the best of friends, just having a bit of fun. Well, except for Kenny, he's always dead serious. LOL.
See you boys next at the T.C.
Hope your Holidays are the best!
Glen H
 
#28 ·
Wow! This has been quite a thread! I've exchanged posts with a few of you here, but I know only Kenny. We have been shooting together several times, but for fun only, no matches. Even so, I know why Kenny shoots -- he enjoys it and he's very good at it, considerably better than I am. I've seen many of his targets and match results, so I know that's true.

I really like to shoot too, but I don't take it nearly as seriously. Yes, I like to shoot tiny groups, and always try for those. I have more than a few rifles that will deliver, but they aren't rifles to shoot a clean. My first love is an elegant sporter that is a joy to look at, handle, and shoot. And, yes, it had better be accurate. I had enough intense competition in my professional life; my shooting is for enjoyment. I suspect many here at RFC are of a like mind.

But whatever works for you...

Doug
 
#31 ·
Got me thinking

I can see what John was talking about & sorta fall into the same mindset. I only shoot my factory rifles a couple times a year it seems & haven't shot standing up in I don't remember how long? Just doesn't interest me anymore.
I'm a very competitive person, but mostly with myself. Right up until someone rubs me the wrong way. Then its game on. That's what got me into this was a persons arrogance & my desire to upend him. Spent a fortune it seems to get where I am today & ask myself now & then if its been worth it? I think so.
That high level of competitiveness with a few guys early on really took its toll on me. And them. I've witnessed friendships end due to it, & lots of hard feelings otherwise. Some people can't differentiate competitiveness & sportsmanship That isn't fun for anybody.
I changed my mindset a couple years ago for this reason. Mainly because it was that or find something else to do. I couldn't do that as I enjoy tinkering to much & have met so many great people in this sport I wouldn't know otherwise.
I'm at a bit of a crossroad now as I'm essentially out of ammo & have no real desire to endlessly test for something great in 2 or 3 rifles. I just want to shoot, have some laughs, & tinker around with these things.
Think I may take a factory gun out today....:gun4: :cool:

Keith
 
#32 ·
OK one last thought. The next target or match you shoot do you want to A. Do better than you usually do. B. Do about the same you usually do. C. Do worse than you usually do.

If you answered A then you are like me. B you are weird and like Kenny. C you are a plinker. If A then go back to the start of this thread and carefully reread every post all the while repeating "I want to do better" "I want to do better" "I want to do better"

See this thread any differently?????
 
#33 ·
OK one last thought. The next target or match you shoot do you want to A. Do better than you usually do. B. Do about the same you usually do. C. Do worse than you usually do.

If you answered A then you are like me. B you are weird and like Kenny. C you are a plinker. If A then go back to the start of this thread and carefully reread every post all the while repeating "I want to do better" "I want to do better with factory guns" "I want to do better with factory guns"

See this thread any differently?????
Hmmmmmmmm.......fixed that.......:D

My answer is "A" of course........
 
#36 ·
I think we all like to compete at our best,even tho we can have good,better,or the best equipment in the end it might not matter.here's an example

Last match at Bill's I was humming along shooting fairly consistent then"Wham" I get a 10,like from nowhere out of the blue,next shot back on the bull,same ammo,same box

In all reasoning the only way I could figure it could have happened was the ammo.So we are tied to how well we do by what ammo gives us,Granted it was B.B Eley and not Tenex.I could have spent more on ammo,but why,to avoid a ten the only 10 in a 12 card match would have cost me an extra $45,not worth it to me.Then afterwards checking score had several 0.0001 and 0.0004 shots,now really can the human eye even with a 10X loupe detect 0.0001 thousandths,maybe with 60x but 10,dunno

I take my camera with me to most matchs and it allows me to use a macro image on shots that when photographed almost always show that anything in that range is inside the blue ring,but hey it ain't rocket science in this day and age to come up with a higher magnification to see whats really going on since the competition as John says is so tight at the top.I have always been curious if brass can swell 0.0001-0.0004 indoors/outdoors from pocket heat or heat associated with a bright lamp,hmmmm,sooo many variables just to win.Thats why I just shoot to have fun and don't worry about the madness:)

I consistently go downhill after 6 cards,the eyes don't have it in me,Glaucoma in right eye is causing really bad issues for me nowadays,but it won't deter me I'm still just shootin fer fun,not an excuse just a fact of life I deal with.

Goin Blind in 1 eye,gimpy in one leg ,all I need now is a Parrot an I'm a Funny Pirate Arrrrrrr Mateys:)
 
#38 ·
John,

That pot stirring stick of yours must be down to the size of a tooth pick by now!

FWIW, I think this thread is an interesting discussion even with some of the dissenting opinions because I've yet to see any black eyes or spilling of blood. It wouldn't have surprised me if that had happened....you're a brave man! After all the posting I've done over the years I'm now a coward! LOL

Landy
 
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