RimfireCentral.com Forums

RimfireCentral.com Forums (https://www.rimfirecentral.com/forums/index.php)
-   .22 Ammunition (S-L-LR) (https://www.rimfirecentral.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=31)
-   -   Cutting Edge ELR ammo (https://www.rimfirecentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1184075)

Markbo 02-02-2020 08:42 PM

Cutting Edge ELR ammo
 
Interesting ammo announcement.

https://youtu.be/ApP1e_EVbFY

Wart Hawg 02-03-2020 07:33 AM

Very interesting! I like keeping all options open but I see this as being quite pricey. "Each bullet is machined ... " ain't gonna be cheap.

Penage Guy 02-03-2020 07:58 AM

In an effort to meet the growing needs of ELR shooters, Cutting Edge plans to make a new solid copper bullet, some with polymer tips. They haven't decided on weights, but intend to make them in different weights for 16, 9, and 6 twists. They say it will be ready-to-go ammo. Spring 2020 is the planned release of this ammo. This is what they say.

On a recent FB post from Cutting Edge, they indicate they plan to partner with an ammo manufacturer to produce the ammunition and so it might be a while yet before the ammo is seen.

Copper is lighter than lead, harder too. Perhaps it is easier to design a new bullet than to make it fly well. There's a lot that goes into .22 rimfire accuracy before getting to the bullet. Extreme long range accuracy is tougher still.

Here's a photo of the ammo, but it's not clear whether this is a mock up.

https://i1275.photobucket.com/albums...pspnljkrar.jpg

M52E1 02-03-2020 05:35 PM

I have several comments:

1. Cutting Edge will be using solid turned .22 bullets - Warner Tool Company has their own product line of "Flat Line Bullets" which are solid turned VLD bullets. Their 88 grain 6mm bullets are $527 per 500 so I have to imagine that the Cutting Edge products will somewhere between $.50 to $1.00 a piece just for the bullet. Then comes primer, powder, loading, packaging and shipping. Frankly I don't see there being a large market for what is effectively expensive plinking (Hitting a plate or object at a known or unknown distance)

2. If current "Tactical" users of Eley Tenex, Lapua Xact / Midas +, or RWS R-50 are complaining about the cost of ammunition then I cannot imagine what they will do when the Cutting Edge .22 MSRP is published.

Bill

dash4cash 02-04-2020 06:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by M52E1 (Post 11763949)
I have several comments:

1. Cutting Edge will be using solid turned .22 bullets - Warner Tool Company has their own product line of "Flat Line Bullets" which are solid turned VLD bullets. Their 88 grain 6mm bullets are $527 per 500 so I have to imagine that the Cutting Edge products will somewhere between $.50 to $1.00 a piece just for the bullet. Then comes primer, powder, loading, packaging and shipping. Frankly I don't see there being a large market for what is effectively expensive plinking (Hitting a plate or object at a known or unknown distance)

2. If current "Tactical" users of Eley Tenex, Lapua Xact / Midas +, or RWS R-50 are complaining about the cost of ammunition then I cannot imagine what they will do when the Cutting Edge .22 MSRP is published.

Bill

They will complain, but if it shoots better than the mentioned some will buy it as well, I know I am one of those guys who will complain all the way to the check out lol.

MDrimfirerookie 02-04-2020 08:03 AM

for the people shooting 22 ELR seriously, the cost won't be a factor. most have multiple thousands of dollars tied up in gear already so a bullet that might give them an edge at 450 to 500 yards for a world record is nothing.

i know if i could afford to play that game seriously, i would not blink twice about these bullets. hell i may still end up getting in that game at some point

Penage Guy 02-04-2020 09:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MDrimfirerookie (Post 11764549)
for the people shooting 22 ELR seriously, the cost won't be a factor. most have multiple thousands of dollars tied up in gear already so a bullet that might give them an edge at 450 to 500 yards for a world record is nothing.

i know if i could afford to play that game seriously, i would not blink twice about these bullets. hell i may still end up getting in that game at some point

Thousands of dollars in equipment or not, the effects of gravity can't be ignored when looking for accuracy at ranges that are excessively long for .22LR, no matter what bullet is used, unless the standard for accuracy at 450 yards and more is set at a very low bar.

For any bullet at SV .22LR muzzle velocities among the most important factors for long range accuracy is muzzle velocity consistency. The wider the extreme spread of MV's the more difficult it will be to achieve any measure of reasonable accuracy especially as distance increases.

Cutting Edge proposes to partner with an ammo manufacturer to eventually produce ready-to-go ammo. Any such ammo will have to be remarkably consistent in muzzle velocity to be better than the best currently available .22LR match ammo. Does it seem likely that Cutting Edge will be able to partner with a current manufacturer of top level .22LR ammo?

The best currently available ammo is expensive and replacing match ammo bullets with Cutting Edge bullets would drive the price up even higher. At a price of $0.50 per bullet (if the lowest figure suggested above by M52E1 is realistic), the base price for a box of this new magic ammo would be $25 plus the cost of the rest of the components, and it may not be unreasonable to imagine that the Eley or Lapua bullets are not the most expensive part of Tenex or Midas + ammo.

outbreaker 02-04-2020 10:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Penage Guy (Post 11764695)
Thousands of dollars in equipment or not, the effects of gravity can't be ignored when looking for accuracy at ranges that are excessively long for .22LR, no matter what bullet is used, unless the standard for accuracy at 450 yards and more is set at a very low bar.

For any bullet at SV .22LR muzzle velocities among the most important factors for long range accuracy is muzzle velocity consistency. The wider the extreme spread of MV's the more difficult it will be to achieve any measure of reasonable accuracy especially as distance increases.

Cutting Edge proposes to partner with an ammo manufacturer to eventually produce ready-to-go ammo. Any such ammo will have to be remarkably consistent in muzzle velocity to be better than the best currently available .22LR match ammo. Does it seem likely that Cutting Edge will be able to partner with a current manufacturer of top level .22LR ammo?

The best currently available ammo is expensive and replacing match ammo bullets with Cutting Edge bullets would drive the price up even higher. At a price of $0.50 per bullet (if the lowest figure suggested above by M52E1 is realistic), the base price for a box of this new magic ammo would be $25 plus the cost of the rest of the components, and it may not be unreasonable to imagine that the Eley or Lapua bullets are not the most expensive part of Tenex or Midas + ammo.

You are correct but missing one important part.

We have a saying in the center fire world. Muzzle Velocity is cool but Ballistic Coefficient is forever.

A slower more efficient round will have more velocity at long range than a faster hunk of lead. These will translate into lower drops due to velocity being maintained.

Gravity is still there, but a faster round will be under its effects less time.

gcrank1 02-04-2020 10:19 AM

My guess (truly a wag) is that these light for caliber bullets are intended to be driven to a whole new velocity regarding 22LR ammo with a BC that puts them into that next level of approaching CF.
I wholly agree that getting the bugs out of RF manufacturing to realize the potential of this concept is more than a little challenge. Upside could be that us more conventional ammo shooters will benifit from the work they put into this, like back when Fed was making real comp ammo in the 80's (was it?).

glennasher 02-04-2020 01:02 PM

Am I the only one that thinks if this was gonna work, that RWS, Eley, and Lapua would have already done it? With the velocity generated in a LR case, BC ain't gonna matter much anyway. It just ISN'T. In this velocity range, round nose is where it's at.

Same deal with stuff like the .45/70, if it could use a spitzer usefully, someone would have done it by now.

In addition, you'd have to rebarrel the rifle for a faster twist, not insurmountable, but that IS expensive, especially when you have to spend twice the rifle's cost for a good barrel.

It's just not a particularly good idea, either dollar/cents wise, or dollar/sense wise.

gcrank1 02-04-2020 01:30 PM

Maybe it will be just the thing for those with 'more dollars than sense'

Penage Guy 02-04-2020 01:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by glennasher (Post 11764915)
Am I the only one that thinks if this was gonna work, that RWS, Eley, and Lapua would have already done it? With the velocity generated in a LR case, BC ain't gonna matter much anyway. It just ISN'T. In this velocity range, round nose is where it's at.

I agree. It would be a mystery why researchers at one of the big three .22LR match ammo makers hadn't thought of something so simple as a different bullet shape to produce ammo that was much better at long distances.

The point that MV's possible within the limits of the .22LR casing is a good one and well worth keeping in mind.

Quote:

Originally Posted by outbreaker (Post 11764763)
You are correct but missing one important part.

We have a saying in the center fire world. Muzzle Velocity is cool but Ballistic Coefficient is forever.

A slower more efficient round will have more velocity at long range than a faster hunk of lead. These will translate into lower drops due to velocity being maintained.

Gravity is still there, but a faster round will be under its effects less time.

Are you saying that, unlike a regular lead round nose 40 grain .22LR bullet, because of its BC the Cutting Edge bullet can be slow and yet not suffer significant velocity drop at longer ranges? What BC is necessary for that to be of significance?

Copper is harder and lighter than lead. What limitations would the all-copper composition of the Cutting Edge bullet impose on the weight and length of such a bullet designed for use in .22LR chambers?

gcrank1 02-04-2020 01:43 PM

And I cant help but wonder how that bullet, and whatever powder used, will affect the relatively soft barrel steel used in most 22s?
Another wag is that barrel life would be reduced.

Penage Guy 02-04-2020 02:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gcrank1 (Post 11764973)
And I cant help but wonder how that bullet, and whatever powder used, will affect the relatively soft barrel steel used in most 22s?
Another wag is that barrel life would be reduced.

Is there evidence that .22LR barrels are softer than other barrels?

outbreaker 02-04-2020 03:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Penage Guy (Post 11764961)
I agree. It would be a mystery why researchers at one of the big three .22LR match ammo makers hadn't thought of something so simple as a different bullet shape to produce ammo that was much better at long distances.

The point that MV's possible within the limits of the .22LR casing is a good one and well worth keeping in mind.



Are you saying that, unlike a regular lead round nose 40 grain .22LR bullet, because of its BC the Cutting Edge bullet can be slow and yet not suffer significant velocity drop at longer ranges? What BC is necessary for that to be of significance?

Copper is harder and lighter than lead. What limitations would the all-copper composition of the Cutting Edge bullet impose on the weight and length of such a bullet designed for use in .22LR chambers?

What I was saying is a slow high BC bullet (210 gr in my 300 RUM) will catch and pass a low BC bullet going faster (125gr in my 300 RUM). Basic physics still applies but is compressed in the 22 world. My wind drift in a .22 at 100yds is about the same as my RUM at 400 yds

1. The Copper is lighter and should be faster at the beginning.
2. The Copper will spike pressure and will have to have a reduced loading.
3. The Velocity should not change since both of these move together.

If we assume velocity is the same and the only variables changing are BC and Weight. A BC change of .05 (about what we would expect) would have the effect of lowering the amount of drop at 400 yds by almost exactly 4MOA or about 16 inches.

This is because it is keeping its velocity longer.

This also will translate into less wind drift, spin drift and other effects.


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 02:11 AM.

DMCA Notice

Powered by vBulletin
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Search Engine Optimisation provided by DragonByte SEO (Lite) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2020 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.
vBulletin Security provided by vBSecurity v2.2.2 (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2020 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.
vBulletin Optimisation provided by vB Optimise (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2020 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.
Copyright 2000-2018 RimfireCentral.com