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tonykharper 05-03-2021 10:37 AM

The Triple Crown of Rimfire
 
The Triple Crown of Rimfire is schedule for the week of 25 thur 30 May 2021.

I would like to make a proposal to change the IR 50/50 portion of the Triple Crown from the three targets of IR 50/50 Unlimited, to three targets of IR 50/50 10 shot scoring.

The IR 50/50 "unlimited" portion has always been the most feared portion of the Triple Crown. If one has one bad shot it drops his overall score tremendously.

I don't think anyone has ever won the Triple Crown that shot a 749 agg. on the IR 50/50 portion. It is simply the nature of the IR 50/50 unlimited scoring system.

On the other hand the 10 Shot scoring system rewards absolute accuracy without penalizing one or two bad shots just as ARA and PSL does.

In addition the 10 Shot scoring system allows one to come back from a poor target by having so much upside for an outstanding performance.

This is not my original idea. Bill Calfee came up with it.

I feel so strongly that it will improve the Triple Crown I'm advocating here.

Paul Tolvstad and Jason Frymier are in a position to affect this change.

If you support this idea please respond here. Maybe we can convince Paul and Jason it is time for a change.

TKH

Turbosam 05-04-2021 06:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tonykharper (Post 12304735)
The Triple Crown of Rimfire is schedule for the week of 25 thur 30 May 2021.

I would like to make a proposal to change the IR 50/50 portion of the Triple Crown from the three targets of IR 50/50 Unlimited, to three targets of IR 50/50 10 shot scoring.

The IR 50/50 "unlimited" portion has always been the most feared portion of the Triple Crown. If one has one bad shot it drops his overall score tremendously.

I don't think anyone has ever won the Triple Crown that shot a 749 agg. on the IR 50/50 portion. It is simply the nature of the IR 50/50 unlimited scoring system.

On the other hand the 10 Shot scoring system rewards absolute accuracy without penalizing one or two bad shots just as ARA and PSL does.

In addition the 10 Shot scoring system allows one to come back from a poor target by having so much upside for an outstanding performance.

This is not my original idea. Bill Calfee came up with it.

I feel so strongly that it will improve the Triple Crown I'm advocating here.

Paul Tolvstad and Jason Frymier are in a position to affect this change.

If you support this idea please respond here. Maybe we can convince Paul and Jason it is time for a change.

TKH

Tony not to rain on the parade but people can't even shoot perfect scores on the 50/50 portion and you want to make it harder?

AC5D 05-04-2021 07:35 AM

OK, I admit that I'm new to this but what the heck is the "Triple Crown"? Where can I look for information?

vlnbyr 05-04-2021 07:48 AM

Triple Crown of Rimfire.....2 day event shooting 3 targets each ARA/PSL/IR50. Every Memorial Day weekend at Kettlefoot in Bristol VA.

tonykharper 05-04-2021 08:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Turbosam (Post 12305713)
Tony not to rain on the parade but people can't even shoot perfect scores on the 50/50 portion and you want to make it harder?

Turbosam,

Apparently I didn't make my point. Please let me try again.

IR 50/50 unlimited scoring allows many people to shoot a three target agg. of 750. Three 250s. The top 6-10 shooters at the Triple Crown do it every year.

The problem is a 250 1X target beats a 249 24X target. In other words the most precision target does not always win with IR 50/50 unlimited scoring.

Many shooters realize this and know if they shoot one 9 they are most likely out of it.

That one shot could be a bad round, or your own fault most of the time you will never know.

With IR 50/50 10 shot scoring the most precision target always wins. More like the ARA and PSL.

In ARA and PSL the best shooters are working with scores in the 2350 plus range. The best they can do if they are really on their game is 2500. That is their possible upside.

On the other hand the best 10-shot shooters are shooting 90-120 point targets.

In 10 shot, a shooter really on his game has the possibility to shoot a 250 target that would make up a lot of ground. Said another way in 10 shot you are not ever out of it until the last target is scored.

The IR 50/50 unlimited portion of the Triple Crown is always shot last and it is the most feared part of the competition.

If you are doing well on the first two portions, one bad round can take you right out of it. Where as a 2450 PSL or ARA target probably wouldn't hurt your overall finish too much.

But if you shoot a 749 IR 50/50 unlimited score you drop below everyone that shot 750's. And again that might be 6 to 10 places.

TKH

2500X 05-04-2021 03:15 PM

Give me one example where someone won any State, Regional, National or Triple Crown match with a score of 250-0 or 1X.

tonykharper 05-04-2021 04:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 2500X (Post 12306319)
Give me one example where someone won any State, Regional, National or Triple Crown match with a score of 250-0 or 1X.

What is your point?

Or are you just being a troll? Of course your handle gives it all away.

TKH

2500X 05-04-2021 06:18 PM

My point? How about try to come up with a somewhat realistic example. How about: Should a 250-19X beat a 249-23X? Should a 250-14X beat a 248-19X? A 250-1X beating a 249-24X is an absurd example. But only a troll would point that out I guess.

tonykharper 05-04-2021 09:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 2500X (Post 12306527)
My point? How about try to come up with a somewhat realistic example. How about: Should a 250-19X beat a 249-23X? Should a 250-14X beat a 248-19X? A 250-1X beating a 249-24X is an absurd example. But only a troll would point that out I guess.

I'm confused as to your point and motivation.

I'm guessing you haven't shot much, ARA, PSL, or IR 50/50 10-shot.

On the other hand, you seem to have some knowledge of IR 50/50 targets.

If so, you should understand scoring rules have nothing to do with examples of what may happen, or the odds of them happening.

If that is beyond your understanding, I can't be of much help.

TKH

404tbang 05-05-2021 03:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 2500X (Post 12306527)
My point? How about try to come up with a somewhat realistic example. How about: Should a 250-19X beat a 249-23X? Should a 250-14X beat a 248-19X? A 250-1X beating a 249-24X is an absurd example. But only a troll would point that out I guess.

Wilbur Harris has talked about having shot a 250-0x target before.

todde 05-05-2021 06:14 AM

2500x knows his way around a IR5050 target.
Todd

Ralph Spoilsport 05-05-2021 07:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 2500X (Post 12306319)
Give me one example where someone won any State, Regional, National or Triple Crown match with a score of 250-0 or 1X.

Quote:

Originally Posted by 2500X (Post 12306527)
My point? How about try to come up with a somewhat realistic example. How about: Should a 250-19X beat a 249-23X? Should a 250-14X beat a 248-19X? A 250-1X beating a 249-24X is an absurd example. But only a troll would point that out I guess.

Tony, I think Bill Buskey (who has shot a lot of 50/50 targets) is right on the money here. I've heard this "250 (insert ridiculously low X count here) beats a 249- (insert high X-count here)" argument since I first started shooting IR 50/50 almost 10 years ago.

But the real argument is the hurt feelings that a 250- 13X beats a 249- 23X. The heart of this argument is often insulting to the shooter that wins as somehow being "undeserving" because his target is less "precise". You at least point out that when a shot is missed "most of the time you will never know." A miss can be clearly out or a heart-breaking line-licker. The insinuation is that we should assume big name shooters' misses must be a bullet issue and not the result of missing a condition change. To me a shooter who manages to keep them all in the 10-ring in tricky conditions (regardless of X-count) absolutely deserves to beat a target with a higher X-count that loses one or several.

Calfee is the one really blowing this dog-whistle and you are doing his bidding here. In his mind undeserving shooters can win with "inferior equipment or inferior shooting talent because you drew a bad bullet...." and that drives him crazy. That post of his is one of the most insulting things I've ever read over there, and that's saying something. It seems in that world only shooters whose guns have names on them are worthy of winning. A handful of shooters should be designated at the beginning of a match as deserving winners and everyone else should just pay their match fees and shake their heads in awe. And if one of the anointed doesn't win it's simply a fluke or a result of an unfair scoring system.

Even though I've never shot the Triple Crown I appreciate the 50/50 portion being the finale. This target used to be derided for being "feel-good" but in reality is very demanding and it's a great way to end it.

I agree 10-Shot is a fantastic variant of 50/50 and I wish more people whould shoot it to really understand it. A miss doesn't have near the consequences that it does in traditional 50/50. There are several important 10-Shot matches earlier in that week and hopefully shooters will get some exposure to it and understand its' appeal.

BTW, as far as I know Jason has nothing to do with the Triple Crown. Paul and Wayne run that show.

Bruce Hornstein

tonykharper 05-05-2021 08:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ralph Spoilsport (Post 12307001)
Tony, I think Bill Buskey (who has shot a lot of 50/50 targets) is right on the money here. I've heard this "250 (insert ridiculously low X count here) beats a 249- (insert high X-count here)" argument since I first started shooting IR 50/50 almost 10 years ago.

But the real argument is the hurt feelings that a 250- 13X beats a 249- 23X. The heart of this argument is often insulting to the shooter that wins as somehow being "undeserving" because his target is less "precise". You at least point out that when a shot is missed "most of the time you will never know." A miss can be clearly out or a heart-breaking line-licker. The insinuation is that we should assume big name shooters' misses must be a bullet issue and not the result of missing a condition change. To me a shooter who manages to keep them all in the 10-ring in tricky conditions (regardless of X-count) absolutely deserves to beat a target with a higher X-count that loses one or several.

Calfee is the one really blowing this dog-whistle and you are doing his bidding here. In his mind undeserving shooters can win with "inferior equipment or inferior shooting talent because you drew a bad bullet...." and that drives him crazy. That post of his is one of the most insulting things I've ever read over there, and that's saying something. It seems in that world only shooters whose guns have names on them are worthy of winning. A handful of shooters should be designated at the beginning of a match as deserving winners and everyone else should just pay their match fees and shake their heads in awe. And if one of the anointed doesn't win it's simply a fluke or a result of an unfair scoring system.

Even though I've never shot the Triple Crown I appreciate the 50/50 portion being the finale. This target used to be derided for being "feel-good" but in reality is very demanding and it's a great way to end it.

I agree 10-Shot is a fantastic variant of 50/50 and I wish more people whould shoot it to really understand it. A miss doesn't have near the consequences that it does in traditional 50/50. There are several important 10-Shot matches earlier in that week and hopefully shooters will get some exposure to it and understand its' appeal.

BTW, as far as I know Jason has nothing to do with the Triple Crown. Paul and Wayne run that show.

Bruce Hornstein

Bruce,

With all due respect you represent the IR 50/50 mind set well. But you are missing, or avoiding the main point.

Point being, a bad shot, no matter the cause, on the IR 50/50 unlimited targets have a much greater impact on your overall finish in the Triple Crown than the ARA and PSL targets.

If your position is you prefer the Triple Crown to have such a factor, I can appreciate that point of view.

I don't share it.

I think the Triple Crown winner should be the shooter that shoots all 9 targets with the greatest precision. Not a shooter that made his miss or misses at the best time.

All IR 50/50 shooters have won matches when they didn't shoot the best targets. And yes, lost matches to poorer performances, just the breaks of the game?

But that does not mean we shouldn't eliminate factors that cause that kind of result.

Paul and Wayne run the Triple Crown, but since Jason owns IR 50/50 I would think he should have some say over how it is used.

TKH

2500X 05-05-2021 09:11 PM

Anyone who has shot a few IR50/50 matches have likely lost to someone who shot a higher score with a lower X count. That's the game and them's the breaks. I guess the 2nd (or 3rd) place shooter shouldn't have missed the ten ring. When I went to my first IR50/50 3 Gun Nationals back in 2010. Jim Pepper won the 3 Gun. I came in second by 2Xs and Mel Eck came in third, one point behind Jim and I but with a higher X count than Jim and I.

Your guru Mr. Calfee was singing a different tune back then. He wasn't saying then that Mel Eck should have won or was the better shooter blah blah blah. No, he said that Jim Pepper (The Tennessee Stud) "dominated" the field. I remember thinking that a 2X or a 1 point differential out of 1500 points was a mighty thin domination. But such was the acrimonious rhetoric of rimfire benchrest at the time.

The IR50/50 game is what it is. It rewards the shooter who can, first, consistently achieve hitting the .250" 10 ring and, second, who then can hit that .031" X dot as the tie breaker. It's a very common way of scoring rifle and pistol matches.

The Triple Crown was meant to be a way of combining the 3 most common rimfire benchrest games (ARA, IR50/50 & PSL) The winner is the shooter who can achieve the highest score of those 3 different targets. That's the match. Choose to shoot it or not, but stop trying to massage it to your advantage or liking or whining about losing it by a dropped point. When I drove home with Mel Eck after he lost in 2010 by 1 point despite having a better X count than the deserving winner, there was not one whine out of him. We both took our loss to Jim like big boys. That match, Jim was the better shooter, by just a whisker.

tonykharper 05-05-2021 09:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 2500X (Post 12307915)
Anyone who has shot a few IR50/50 matches have likely lost to someone who shot a higher score with a lower X count. That's the game and them's the breaks. I guess the 2nd (or 3rd) place shooter shouldn't have missed the ten ring. When I went to my first IR50/50 3 Gun Nationals back in 2010. Jim Pepper won the 3 Gun. I came in second by 2Xs and Mel Eck came in third, one point behind Jim and I but with a higher X count than Jim and I.

Your guru Mr. Calfee was singing a different tune back then. He wasn't saying then that Mel Eck should have won or was the better shooter blah blah blah. No, he said that Jim Pepper (The Tennessee Stud) "dominated" the field. I remember thinking that a 2X or a 1 point differential out of 1500 points was a mighty thin domination. But such was the acrimonious rhetoric of rimfire benchrest at the time.

The IR50/50 game is what it is. It rewards the shooter who can, first, consistently achieve hitting the .250" 10 ring and, second, who then can hit that .031" X dot as the tie breaker. It's a very common way of scoring rifle and pistol matches.

The Triple Crown was meant to be a way of combining the 3 most common rimfire benchrest games (ARA, IR50/50 & PSL) The winner is the shooter who can achieve the highest score of those 3 different targets. That's the match. Choose to shoot it or not, but stop trying to massage it to your advantage or liking or whining about losing it by a dropped point. When I drove home with Mel Eck after he lost in 2010 by 1 point despite having a better X count than the deserving winner, there was not one whine out of him. We both took our loss to Jim like big boys. That match, Jim was the better shooter, by just a whisker.

I see you still aren't discussing the merits of the thread proposal. Just throwing out old painful memories and making accusations about topics no one has mentioned.

If you had just a little insight you would see you are still whining about losing.

The evidence is you quit and never came back.

Perhaps if the match was scored differently you may not have left with the same sour taste.

Think about it!

TKH

Turbosam 05-06-2021 06:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tonykharper (Post 12305885)
Quote:

Originally Posted by Turbosam (Post 12305713)
Tony not to rain on the parade but people can't even shoot perfect scores on the 50/50 portion and you want to make it harder?

Turbosam,

Apparently I didn't make my point. Please let me try again.

IR 50/50 unlimited scoring allows many people to shoot a three target agg. of 750. Three 250s. The top 6-10 shooters at the Triple Crown do it every year.

The problem is a 250 1X target beats a 249 24X target. In other words the most precision target does not always win with IR 50/50 unlimited scoring.

Many shooters realize this and know if they shoot one 9 they are most likely out of it.

That one shot could be a bad round, or your own fault most of the time you will never know.

With IR 50/50 10 shot scoring the most precision target always wins. More like the ARA and PSL.

In ARA and PSL the best shooters are working with scores in the 2350 plus range. The best they can do if they are really on their game is 2500. That is their possible upside.

On the other hand the best 10-shot shooters are shooting 90-120 point targets.

In 10 shot, a shooter really on his game has the possibility to shoot a 250 target that would make up a lot of ground. Said another way in 10 shot you are not ever out of it until the last target is scored.

The IR 50/50 unlimited portion of the Triple Crown is always shot last and it is the most feared part of the competition.

If you are doing well on the first two portions, one bad round can take you right out of it. Where as a 2450 PSL or ARA target probably wouldn't hurt your overall finish too much.

But if you shoot a 749 IR 50/50 unlimited score you drop below everyone that shot 750's. And again that might be 6 to 10 places.

TKH

Quote:

Originally Posted by tonykharper (Post 12307945)
Quote:

Originally Posted by 2500X (Post 12307915)
Anyone who has shot a few IR50/50 matches have likely lost to someone who shot a higher score with a lower X count. That's the game and them's the breaks. I guess the 2nd (or 3rd) place shooter shouldn't have missed the ten ring. When I went to my first IR50/50 3 Gun Nationals back in 2010. Jim Pepper won the 3 Gun. I came in second by 2Xs and Mel Eck came in third, one point behind Jim and I but with a higher X count than Jim and I.

Your guru Mr. Calfee was singing a different tune back then. He wasn't saying then that Mel Eck should have won or was the better shooter blah blah blah. No, he said that Jim Pepper (The Tennessee Stud) "dominated" the field. I remember thinking that a 2X or a 1 point differential out of 1500 points was a mighty thin domination. But such was the acrimonious rhetoric of rimfire benchrest at the time.

The IR50/50 game is what it is. It rewards the shooter who can, first, consistently achieve hitting the .250" 10 ring and, second, who then can hit that .031" X dot as the tie breaker. It's a very common way of scoring rifle and pistol matches.

The Triple Crown was meant to be a way of combining the 3 most common rimfire benchrest games (ARA, IR50/50 & PSL) The winner is the shooter who can achieve the highest score of those 3 different targets. That's the match. Choose to shoot it or not, but stop trying to massage it to your advantage or liking or whining about losing it by a dropped point. When I drove home with Mel Eck after he lost in 2010 by 1 point despite having a better X count than the deserving winner, there was not one whine out of him. We both took our loss to Jim like big boys. That match, Jim was the better shooter, by just a whisker.

I see you still aren't discussing the merits of the thread proposal. Just throwing out old painful memories and making accusations about topics no one has mentioned.

If you had just a little insight you would see you are still whining about losing.

The evidence is you quit and never came back.

Perhaps if the match was scored differently you may not have left with the same sour taste.

Think about it!

TKH

Tony he's right you're just trying to get things in your favor. Just like you've done with a few other things in this sport. Stop trying to change what doesn't need to be changed or fixed. Shoot or don't it's up to the individual not one person championing for changes cause someone's feelings get hurt because of a loss shot. Lmao wow

tonykharper 05-06-2021 07:47 AM

Turbosam,

I'm not sure why you think the 10-shot targets would favor me but I'm flattered.

I always push for change. Change brings progress. If you let things stagnate they die. Just look at attendance and not just the corvid year.

I understand change itself is painful, but it is worthwhile.

I certainly agree each person has the right to choose to shoot the Triple Crown or not but those that do not, should not color the discussion of how it is shot.

With that being said I now understand there is little interest in the Triple Crown on this board and will stop posting about it here. So take your last shots and expect no response.

TKH

2500X 05-06-2021 07:35 PM

Tony, your assessment of my BR involvement is a bit off. I continued to shoot for 6 more years after shooting that 3 Gun National in 2010. I stopped in 2016 after attaining the goals I set for myself. I also missed shooting skeet and trap, (my first shooting interest) and wanted to get back to doing that. In fact, my last National event was the IR50/50 Unlimited in 2015. I won that event and beat you in the yard event, (you didn't shoot the meters event) as I recall. That left a pretty sweet taste.

What's funny is in the 5 years I've been away people are still whining and perseverating about the same things.

linekin 05-09-2021 03:54 AM

I wish I could attend the TC week, its just not in the cards with work. Its a great event & you'll meet some great people you otherwise wouldn't in some locales, especially me.
Having said that I'd thought about Tony's goal & feel like it would be good for all shooters, not just those at the top. You stand to make up significant ground shooting 10 shot. I think it worth trying for the same points he's mentioned.
I can't help but wonder if some of the responses he's got on this & other boards are simply reacting/replying to the post without actually trying to understand it 1st?
I'm sure some will think this post is some sort of fanboy of Tony's & to some extent thats correct, & why wouldn't you(I) be? I've never met anyone more passionate about the sport in all disciplines, willing to help ANYONE in any way possible, & all around great guy. He of all people wouldn't suggest anything that would tarnish the event or more importantly the sport. He means well folks!
As to the whole argument about the rest, well, I get it. It annoys me too hearing about it, but that wasn't the posts intent.
In the end I'd be happy to shoot whatever you put in front of me as I'm sure most are, because for me its more about the people than the event itself. Hope to get back there sometime.

Keith

frey 05-09-2021 05:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by linekin (Post 12311313)
I wish I could attend the TC week, its just not in the cards with work. Its a great event & you'll meet some great people you otherwise wouldn't in some locales, especially me.
Having said that I'd thought about Tony's goal & feel like it would be good for all shooters, not just those at the top. You stand to make up significant ground shooting 10 shot. I think it worth trying for the same points he's mentioned.
I can't help but wonder if some of the responses he's got on this & other boards are simply reacting/replying to the post without actually trying to understand it 1st?
I'm sure some will think this post is some sort of fanboy of Tony's & to some extent thats correct, & why wouldn't you(I) be? I've never met anyone more passionate about the sport in all disciplines, willing to help ANYONE in any way possible, & all around great guy. He of all people wouldn't suggest anything that would tarnish the event or more importantly the sport. He means well folks!
As to the whole argument about the rest, well, I get it. It annoys me too hearing about it, but that wasn't the posts intent.
In the end I'd be happy to shoot whatever you put in front of me as I'm sure most are, because for me its more about the people than the event itself. Hope to get back there sometime.

Keith

it wasn't tony's idea. it was the great divider. tony was just his mouthpiece.

as long as we hide it under the guise of advancing rimfire accuracy, we can ask for anything.

still trying to figure out how switching to a target that gives a second chance for success actually advances rimfire accuracy.

vlnbyr 05-09-2021 08:43 AM

OK here's the viewpoint of a victim of IR/50. Several years ago I shot a 250 on the first IR target at the Triple Crown that moved me into the top 5 in the overall results. Targets 2 and 3 dropped me like the proverbial rock. Last year was the same deal except that I had 250's on the first two IR targets then a 247 on target 3 did me in. ARA and PSL you mostly just get beat. IR/50 you mostly beat yourself. My vote is to leave things as they are. John Prince

tonykharper 05-09-2021 10:02 AM

Guys,

My motivation for the proposal has little to do with Bill Calfee. Yes, he made the suggestion and I know the "orange man bad syndrome" many seem to suffer from. But the suggestion has merit, well at least I thought so.

IR 50/50 is not doing well, attendance is down and dropping. I thought introducing more shooter to IR 50/50 10 shot may inject some enthusiasm.

I've heard many say they hate the IR 50/50 portion of the Triple Crown because of the dramatic effect it can have on your overall finish. I thought changing the targets to the 10-shot which is a pure accuracy target may help. That would make all 9 targets have an equal weigh in deciding the winner.

I'm like Keith, I don't really care what targets I shoot. I've shot them all and enjoy them all, but if changing the Triple Crown target to the 10 shot would help IR 50/50 I thought it was worth pushing, knowing full well the crap I would get over it.

If anyone can tell me why we can't get attendance at IR 50/50 events, especially the unlimited ones I would like to hear it. Thanks for your responses.

TKH

Smoothtrigger 05-09-2021 10:43 AM

If I missed it my apologies, but what is a 10 shot IR50/50 target.

Smooth

vlnbyr 05-09-2021 11:11 AM

A different way of scoring the IR target. Miss the dot = 0. Touch the dot = 4. Remove the dot = 6. Center the shot perfectly in the 10 ring = 10. A good score is 100, great scores 120+.

Smoothtrigger 05-09-2021 11:23 AM

Thanks.

Must be interesting to prove/measure when a shot is perfectly centered. :)

Smooth


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