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-   -   Help with a 17-2 mystery cylinder line (https://www.rimfirecentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1133991)

minic99 08-21-2018 10:49 PM

Help with a 17-2 mystery cylinder line
 
Looking at a shooter grade 17-2 sitting in a LGS. The bolt drag line on the cylinder has an additional line that starts right before each bolt cutout on the cylinder and intersects the cylinder line at about a 30 degree angle like an upside down 1/4 inch long "V". This additional line appears on each of the cylinder bolt stop cutouts and is symmetrical. Any ideas what would have caused this? Sorry, but I don't have a picture to share at this point, but it looks a little like this: /l with the "l" representing the normal cylinder line.

AzShooter 08-22-2018 12:45 AM

Sounds like the Bolt Stop is coming up too early. I don't remember exactly but I think it's out of time. A little work on the Hand should help.

Don't let it hold you back from buying and excellent gun though.

Camster 08-22-2018 11:15 AM

A correctable issue, I suppose, but why should it become your problem? Gun shops have connections with gunsmiths.Let them correct it or find a problem free gun.

minic99 08-22-2018 02:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Camster (Post 11137667)
A correctable issue, I suppose, but why should it become your problem? Gun shops have connections with gunsmiths.Let them correct it or find a problem free gun.

I will have to see and determine if it has already been repaired before its arrival at the store now that I know to watch for the bolt engagement. The $500 price tag caught my attention but I don't really need a new project. It's at one of those tactical stores so it's the black sheep of the display case and the owner is trying to move it.

TEDDY BEAR RAT 08-22-2018 04:58 PM

Doesn't sound like something that could happen by just poor timing during normal operation of the action. Maybe someone scratched it when jacking with the bolt notches for who knows what reason, or the scratches were made when someone removed the cylinder from the crane and placed it in the frame multiple times for, again, who knows what reason.

The main thing is to carefully observe how the bolt drops away and where it pops up on the cylinder when operating the action normally. If it looks good, I wouldn't worry about it, other than they are just unattractive mystery scratches.

If you don't like scratches, buy a new or like-new used one that doesn't have scratches. Sounds like a good price, though, so, if it were me, I wouldn't hesitate. Unlike Camster, I actually prefer non-pristine examples...the mint guns make me nervous :D.

TBR

WRF 08-23-2018 07:42 AM

I know a lot of people resent this but the "BOLT" has nothing to do with timing, cylinder locking etc. for those who like their S&W's it would help to have a parts blow up. I remember when I was in the business having customer calls asking for approx pricing or replacement of a part only to find when the gun arrived it was completely different.

Really need photos of this marred cylinder then we can work on an answer

Regards

TEDDY BEAR RAT 08-23-2018 11:19 AM

I don't disagree with you, technically, but your post creates even more confusion when you insist a bolt has nothing to do with timing. Yes, S&W calls the ejector rod detent and "bolt," but, whether the manufacturer calls the part in question a cylinder stop (S&W), cylinder latch (Ruger), or cylinder bolt (Colt), we knew exactly what the OP was asking, as did you, and we were responding to his question in a way he would understand best. Certainly, when ordering parts, the precise terminology is best (part numbers are even better), but in gunsmithing school, almost everyone called it a bolt, probably because Samuel Colt set the standard for revolvers. I tend to be a semantics Nazi myself, but, in this case, we all understood.

I still don't see how normally operating a completely assembled revolver could create an angled line on a cylinder.

TBR

WRF 08-23-2018 06:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TEDDY BEAR RAT (Post 11138793)
I don't disagree with you, technically, but your post creates even more confusion when you insist a bolt has nothing to do with timing. Yes, S&W calls the ejector rod detent and "bolt," but, whether the manufacturer calls the part in question a cylinder stop (S&W), cylinder latch (Ruger), or cylinder bolt (Colt), we knew exactly what the OP was asking, as did you, and we were responding to his question in a way he would understand best. Certainly, when ordering parts, the precise terminology is best (part numbers are even better), but in gunsmithing school, almost everyone called it a bolt, probably because Samuel Colt set the standard for revolvers. I tend to be a semantics Nazi myself, but, in this case, we all understood.

I still don't see how normally operating a completely assembled revolver could create an angled line on a cylinder.

TBR

Great to hear from a gunsmith school grad or student. We have that in common and I'm a firm believer in the trades and training over Utube and buying parts and tools to wing it. I'm short on time right now but would like to respond later and if you're a revolver guy I'm sure we can add some meat to this thread

Regards

Regards

WRF 08-24-2018 09:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TEDDY BEAR RAT (Post 11138793)
I don't disagree with you, technically, but your post creates even more confusion when you insist a bolt has nothing to do with timing. Yes, S&W calls the ejector rod detent and "bolt," but, whether the manufacturer calls the part in question a cylinder stop (S&W), cylinder latch (Ruger), or cylinder bolt (Colt), we knew exactly what the OP was asking, as did you, and we were responding to his question in a way he would understand best. Certainly, when ordering parts, the precise terminology is best (part numbers are even better), but in gunsmithing school, almost everyone called it a bolt, probably because Samuel Colt set the standard for revolvers. I tend to be a semantics Nazi myself, but, in this case, we all understood.

I still don't see how normally operating a completely assembled revolver could create an angled line on a cylinder.

TBR

Playing around with technical, engineering or mechanical terminology is a slippery slope where at the bottom of the hill nobody knows what each other is talking about. This site like many is populated with quite a few do it yourself gunsmiths many of which reference Utube videos for guidance. I've watched a few of these on Ruger and S&W procedures and all I can say is some of these characters sure aren't gunsmiths let alone competent. It's human nature I guess to buy into merchandizing and promotional advertisements that promise stuff like a new boat in a can or an action job with some spring kits and a handful of special tools. As a rule there is a reason why people spend hard earned dollars and years training at gunsmith schools. And just because you went to one of these schools doesn't mean you're automatically a good mechanic anymore than every kid in your class is going to become a test pilot or brain surgeon.

The fact that S&W, Colt and Ruger call similar parts different names should reveal something about these revolvers. S&W, Colt, and Ruger are different designs, lockworks and parts. To interchange the names eventually clouds the differences in the part internal relationships. To say that Colt calls a part a bolt and it must be the same on S&W etc. is nuts. Just as nuts as saying Samuel Colts early revolvers are like today's DA revolvers. The common design elements is pretty much limited to a trigger, hammer, cylinder, barrel. Each of the three designs mentioned above works differently than the other but the Colt shares less similarities to the others. This is a S&W forum so I think it can't do any harm at least be familiar with the part names and relationship with each other.

The S&W bolt plays no part in the timing of their revolvers. Of course if you want to call a S&W bolt a cylinder stop like it was a Colt then fine but then lets just agree that we aren't talking specifically about anything. A lot of you new guys are thinking what a smart *** but I've spent too many years working on these guns to see people just start re-naming parts because it's convenient. Learn the S&W design and once you do all their revolvers are essentially the same.

It's good to hear you are a gunsmith school grad. We need more like yourself cause the old timers are falling off the edge ( Like me ) . If a new generation of mechanics doesn't show up I can't imagine how the average shooter, hunter etc can get by. Returning guns to the factory ,for regular installs adjustments and fixes won't do. We need trained gunsmiths and they need a decent wage to make a living.

Can I ask which gunsmithing school you went to ? Were you satisfied with your training ? Since we are talking revolvers I'm wondering did your school offer much training on revolvers. If so was it the basic factory armorers course or competition action work. Finally I gotta ask was there any training with Colts ? There aren't but a small handful of mechanics that will touch a Colt these days let alone slick one up so I'm always asking to see if maybe a Colt class is out there. I trained with Ron Power years ago and though he used to work over Colts he has pretty much given it up as has many other better known shops.

Regards

minic99 08-24-2018 10:00 PM

2 Attachment(s)
Took some pic's of the 17 today:[ATTACH]Attachment 164495[/ATTACH]
I watched the cylinder stop cycle as I held the cylinder latch open and slowly worked the trigger and hammer. The stop actually starts towards the front of the frame cut out and moves to the rear as the hammer is cocked-this probably explains the additional abeiviated cylinder lines. I could not observe this with the cylinder closed since the lighting in the store is poor. The stop looks polished with no burs. Since the main cylinder line is more pronounced, could this be an old issue that was corrected by polishing the stop if it had a burr on it? Im not familiar with S&W's so I am not sure if this is a deal breaker.

Camster 08-25-2018 11:11 AM

Wear at rear center point of back plate?. Wobble in the cylinder? The gun has been "Bogarted"?. I'd keep looking. Maybe it would satisfy you, but if you want to sell it one day, that guy will take exception with it.

gcrank1 08-25-2018 11:22 AM

Wonder if you could put some ‘magic-marker’ on the lines and cycle it through a bit to see if it is now tracking in the ‘main line’?, ie, was addressed at some point past.

WRF 08-25-2018 01:10 PM

Educated spitballing here since without my hands on it I'm blind. That scratch or groove mark is obviously associated with the cylinder lock and there are indications of the lock striking the notch strong side edge. Look and you will see a shiney notch edge but photos are really crappy and you can only see one chamber notch but ?

Wobbly cylinder meaning a badly damaged yoke would reveal in gap irregularity, leading and cylinder face marring from timing lock-up which is possible since once again no knowledgeable hands on the gun to range rod and test. But my guess and that is all it is, is somebody has been into this gun via Utube and stoned or messed up the cylinder stop and/ or trigger. Either way stay away from this piece.

Rick

minic99 08-26-2018 09:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gcrank1 (Post 11140849)
Wonder if you could put some ‘magic-marker’ on the lines and cycle it through a bit to see if it is now tracking in the ‘main line’?, ie, was addressed at some point past.

Funny you mentioned that because I thought the same thing. Should have brought a Sharpie.

minic99 08-26-2018 09:27 PM

Thanks for all of the good feedback. I think I'm going to pass on this one since I'm looking for a shooter not a project.


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