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Out of battery firing

5K views 27 replies 11 participants last post by  DRob 
#1 ·
So.... I've always wanted a 10/22 mag but know they have problems. When I came across the Select Fire build, I thought I'd give it a run. After a few bobbles it is now complete and functioning -- kinda. My first two rounds through it appear to be out of battery fires. The first tore up the magazine but, lucky me, didn't set off any of the rounds in it. The second was loaded and no magazine inserted. Both of them separated at the base of the case with the base still in the bolt.

Select Fire sends two different springs with the reciever kit, the first shot used the lighter of the springs and the second used the heavier one. I have cycled a couple of magazines loaded with ammo manually through it and all appears well. The ammo feeds well and the bolt fully seats up to the end of the barrel. I have only tried CCI ammunition.

My question is do I need yet a heavier spring for the bolt or am I missing something and have another problem?
 

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#2 ·
How did it fire out of battery is the question. Did you pull the trigger and fire it or did the hammer follow the bolt down, or neither? Does the barrel pass the plop test? Does it go into battery without a round? You said you had the second one with the mag out. It's a big no-no to stick one in the chamber and drop the bolt on a live round, these are controlled feed actions, not made for the extractor to simply snap over the rim like some bolt guns. Lots of variables as you can see. Without the gun in front of me it's hard to troubleshoot. First see if it goes fully into battery without a round in the mag. What goofs did you have in machining? Those could directly relate to your issues.
 
#3 ·
'ol shooter-- I had a round chambered and when I pulled the trigger it appeared to be out of battery. Yes, I also realize that you don't stick on in the chamber and drop the bolt. I had inserted the magazine, chambered a round, and removed the magazine. Yes, it also goes into battery with and without a round. Guess I don't know what the "plop test" is for the barrel.

Anyway, I called up Select Fire and talked to Phil,about it. Two things came out, bad ammo and/or rough chamber. I used CCI, Hornady, and Aguila ammo so not bad ammo. He suggested taking so rouge and polishing the chamber as it sounded like the cases were sticking in it and the bolt was pulling th end off of it.

So....... I polished the chamber a bit and so far haven't had a problem after 25 rounds. Looking at the cases that I fired, a few were bulged on the end so I might do a little more polishing.

Who would have figured.
 
#15 ·
'ol shooter-- I had a round chambered and when I pulled the trigger it appeared to be out of battery. Yes, I also realize that you don't stick on in the chamber and drop the bolt. I had inserted the magazine, chambered a round, and removed the magazine.
If the magazine was not in the gun when this happened, that was most likely the cause. The magazine supports the bolt.
 
#5 ·
Glad some polishing helped. The "plop" test is you clean the chamber, then stand the rifle vertically and see if a loaded round free falls all the way into the chamber. It's a valid test with all semi-auto guns of all calibers. If you reload centerfire, it's a quick and dirty way to see if your loaded ammo will chamber, without using a chamber gage.
 
#6 ·
Thanks shooter. After I posted that and got to thinking (brain finally, slowly engaged) that it might be something along that line.

crackedcornish -- Select Fire had a blued bull barrel that I picked up at the same time I bought the receiver kit.

I think that I need a little more polish time on it and it will be ready for the range. I've been using an oversized cotton swab (made for 22 cal) rouge and my Dremel.
 
#8 ·
Well, ended up doing a little more polishing on the chamber and put a heavier on the bolt, that seems to have taken care of my problem. The fired brass now looks "normal" no bulged ends and eject cleanly. I have run four different brands through it and all performed correctly.

Now to get down to sighting it in and enjoy shooting it.
 
#11 ·
Dirty chamber

Any blow-back operated gun is susceptible (to varying degrees) to OOB ignitions. All such guns leave some ignition debris in the chamber. The 10/22 can/does/will fire slightly out-of-battery. .17 cal conversion are even more susceptible due to the bottle-neck cartridge but straight-wall rounds are not exempt, obviously. I have heard of .22lr version firing OOB but not as often.

That said, a new gun, firing the round for which it was made, should not have this issue right out of the box and should not require the owner to "fix" the problem. When the manufacturer suggests that you perform some task in order to make their product operate correctly, they should compensate you somehow.
 
#12 ·
That said, a new gun, firing the round for which it was made, should not have this issue right out of the box and should not require the owner to "fix" the problem. When the manufacturer suggests that you perform some task in order to make their product operate correctly, they should compensate you somehow.
I agree completely, and that is the best way to get a loyal customer. I have read of customer difficulties with them in the past, guess they haven't gotten the message yet, or don't care.
 
#13 ·
Those don't look like OOB fired cases. The base of the cartridge is not ballooned like it would be if the case were not fully seated in the chamber. That looks like the bolt is opening too soon and tearing the base off the case. Dirty chamber or not, that should not happen. There are two ways to overcome that problem with a 10-22. Make the bolt heavier or use a stronger hammer spring. The leverage the hammer puts on the bolt is partly responsible for holding the bolt closed just a split second longer. It cannot compensate for a bolt that is not heavy enough but it can adjust the action timing slightly. Polishing the chamber and adding weight to the bolt was the correct way to resolve your issue. Another thing to look at if the problem comes back is to dull the point on your extractor a tiny bit. If the extractor is too sharp it can tear the case head off like yours did. The 10-22 extractor is only there to extract live rounds and to control the empty by holding on to it, not pull it out of the chamber. :bthumb:
 
#14 · (Edited)
I'm not sure I agree with your analysis. The heavy alloy bolt used in the 10/22 magnum is engineered by the factory to be the proper weight. Adding weight to a bolt that is properly engineered for the magnum cartridge will disrupt the entire dynamics and make it more difficult to diagnose and fix the real problem. You are correct by noting that the extractor's main function is not to pull the casing from the chamber, but to keep it aligned against the bolt.
 
#24 ·
The cartridge is not completely inside the chamber when the firing pin hits.

Consider that the brass case will NOT contain the force of the round going off. We depend on the support provided by the chamber to keep the brass case from blowing apart. If the brass case is not completely inside the chamber it is "out of battery" and if it goes off while part of the case is outside of the chamber the case is very likely to split open.

The how and why is explained by 'ol shooter.

Lets see if i can make it clearer. As the bolt strips a new round off the magazine and starts to feed the round into the chamber, an obstruction of some sort, usually a dirty chamber, prevents the round and bolt from fully seating up against the barrel breech. The result is a gap between the bolt and the breech face. At this point the trigger is fully reset and able to release the hammer when pulled, which strikes the firing pin. The result is that the firing pin sets the round off, and the unsupported case blows a hole out the side in the gap between the bolt and the barrel. There are only two directions the rapidly expanding gas can readily go, out the ejection port and down into the mag well. The result of that is usually the shooter getting tattooed with burning powder and gasses, and the magazine gets blown out of the gun. Hope that made it easier to picture. It's important with a Magnum to keep it really clean, I have read recommendations of brushing the chamber every fifty rounds. I certainly don't ever intend to have that happen to me.
 
#19 ·
It is my understanding that it is anything except the complete firing of the cartridge in a closed chamber. The cartridge is fully chambered, bolt is fully seated, and the ignition of the cartridge is completed before the bolt opens.

If that isn't correct hopefully someone will set things straight.

kc
 
#21 ·
Thanks. I'm still not sure I understand, but I'll just keep reading and trying to learn.

(Does it mean, like the bullet could fire after the bolt opens back up or something?)
 
#22 ·
Lets see if i can make it clearer. As the bolt strips a new round off the magazine and starts to feed the round into the chamber, an obstruction of some sort, usually a dirty chamber, prevents the round and bolt from fully seating up against the barrel breech. The result is a gap between the bolt and the breech face. At this point the trigger is fully reset and able to release the hammer when pulled, which strikes the firing pin. The result is that the firing pin sets the round off, and the unsupported case blows a hole out the side in the gap between the bolt and the barrel. There are only two directions the rapidly expanding gas can readily go, out the ejection port and down into the mag well. The result of that is usually the shooter getting tattooed with burning powder and gasses, and the magazine gets blown out of the gun. Hope that made it easier to picture. It's important with a Magnum to keep it really clean, I have read recommendations of brushing the chamber every fifty rounds. I certainly don't ever intend to have that happen to me.
 
#23 ·
could be the ammo

Could be the ammo too. I had a similar case separation with CCI 22 mags. Only I was using a single action revolver. When I sent the case and ammo to CCI they gave me a BS story that the ammo must have been stored near paint etc and the fumes contaminated the ammo. (It was stored in a gun safe). SO CCI is off my list of trusted products
 
#26 ·
OOB

An out-of-battery ignition (AKA Kaboom) is as described by Sophia and 'ol shooter. What they left out is that it can produce bits of shrapnel from the case, the magazine, and your beautiful Tuck-painted stock. Don't ask how I know all that! :eek:
 
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