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Why no lower velocity 22 WMR rounds?

12K views 83 replies 36 participants last post by  skippy4570 
#1 ·
I'm debating between buying a 22LR and a 22 WMR. The decision would be a no brainer if 22 WMRs were made at about 1,000 fps for squirrels. Why doesn't anyone make this round?
 
#43 ·
i too, have the CZ with LR and WMR barrels. Very quick to change, a few clicks and it's on the spot. I doubt we will ever see lower speed WMR when you consider that LR is the world standard for all around rim fire.

It would be nice to have the option but it's not likely we will ever see it. Not enough market, over time the additional cost of the WMR rounds will match getting a second rifle. I'll just keep switch barrels.
 
#45 ·
I can understand searching for a more accurate WMR cartridge and perhaps a subsonic version would give you that but it's kind of counter intuitive, considering the round was designed to be a more powerful version of the.22lr, don't you think?

The 50 grain Federal h/p works well for me and is in the top two or three for accuracy in the rifles I've tested it in. Doesn't tear up squirrels too badly but still enough carried energy for coyote or bobcat inside about 150 yds. Never shot a bobcat myself but I've seen video of one fellow with a gun mounted camera take several with his. Shot placement is important with whatever you use.:bthumb:
 
#51 ·
Kanook I do see the concern for demand. I can't imagine the manufacturer's costs to reconfigure for a round that may or may not sell. Probably hard for them to measure.

One niche group would be guys like me who want one rifle for everything from squirrels to yearling feral hogs. WMR has that potential.
 
#54 ·
And a very small niche that would be in my opinion.
How many shooters do you know that want only one rifle.
Anyone who is at all serious about shooting know that you need different tools for different jobs.
A crescent wrench may suffice...but it's no replacement for a proper wrench or socket set.
 
#57 ·
And a very small niche that would be in my opinion.
How many shooters do you know that want only one rifle.
Exactly , poll those here on rimfire and I would feel safe to bet most are multiple rifle owners. I recently picked up a 22 WMR as a more powerful alternative to my rifles in 22 LR.

The 22 mag ammo is hard to find in my area to begin with and a low velocity 22 WMR offering would probably cost a premium over 22 WMR ammo that is already expensive to begin with.
 
#59 ·
power?

A HEAVY BULLET in a 22 mag Subsonic round would be more powerful than a 40 grain 22LR subsonic round.
Exactly why I purchased a Ruger American heavier barrel threaded muzzle 22 mag. Well, ok, I wanted to play with it but I DO have coyotes in the back yard woods and thinking is a 1:14" twist 22 mag barrel should stabilize a heavier bullet, subsonic, than the 22LR 40 gr subsonic (CCI) I've been using.
A 22 mag rifle can be useful in more than one way, why limit the ammo choices?
 
#61 · (Edited)
Packaging was mentioned, cheaper bullet was mentioned, pretty sure ammo mfg's have large warehouses already, has already been some advertising and free word of mouth here, it is being sold in Australia the past couple years and we have 10 times the population. What rimfire ammo is not selling, seems I recall a recent ammo shortage. Shortage, means mfg warehouse space was emptying as fast as ammo was produced.
 
#62 · (Edited)
I don't think Australia is a good comparison. Since their restrictive gun laws since 1996 the only guns that are at all easy to obtain are .22 rimfire. You have to have a very good reason to own a centerfire, and casual sport shooting is not one of them.
So, lots more rimfire per shooting capita meaning that things that would likely not do well here will do well there because it's the only game in town.
I'm involved in manufacturing (not firearms related). If something can be proven to make money someone would be doing it....the fact that no is doing it in North America means that no one has proven to the manufacturers that they are going to make money.
And the few of us as Rimfire Central aren't going to count.
Until someone like Cabela's says they will order a train car sized order...isn't likely going to happen.
 
#63 ·
I think Sophia nailed it on the first page. It's the "M" in WMR. A subsonic loading isn't a Magnum any more, it's just a longer, more awkward .22LR., that probably doesn't shoot as well as a standard LR, and costs more to feed, to boot.


They've had a VERY long time to perfect the LR for accuracy useage. No one ever accused the WMR of being a target round, regardless of how some particular rifle will shoot. Yeah, by the luck of the draw you may get an exceptional rifle that shoots like a million bucks, but the odds are NOT in your favor.
 
#64 ·
How can you prove 22 WMR sub sonic would or would not make money before it is marketed in the USA? 22 WMR is not known for great accuracy and is known to do a lot of damage on small game. Tree squirrel hunters would have a choice if the head shot is not available and less noise. Curious why the same factors that make 22 sub sonic inherently more accurate, would not apply overall to 22 WMR sub sonic in various brands of rifles. I guess the 22 WMR mfg's, even if 22 WMR sub sonic has accuracy to bragg about, are going to say NO we can't have that. Right?
 
#65 · (Edited)
I guess the 22 WMR mfg's, even if 22 WMR sub sonic has accuracy to bragg about, are going to say NO we can't have that. Right?
Market demand, my friend. Their calculus depends entirely on how much profit they might make from introducing a new load.

We'll see how that shakes out once the "coming in 2017" actually gets here. If it sells like hotcakes then you'll likely see other makers come into the market. If it is a market flop not only will no one else jump into the market but Winchester will just quietly discontinue it or make it a seasonal run with only a limited amount made each year.

Curious why the same factors that make 22 sub sonic inherently more accurate, would not apply overall to 22 WMR sub sonic in various brands of rifles.
Sub-sonic rounds are inherently more accurate because they are less susceptible to wind effects. True "match" 22LR ammo is sub-sonic ammo for that reason. The rest of the story is that ammo makers put a lot of effort into making their subsonic match ammo as consistent as possible.

Also, as already mentioned, the bullet's stability is determined by the bullet's rate of spin as a function of its length. There is a formula for determining the optimum spin rate for a bullet of a given length. The longer a bullet is the faster it has to spin to get stable. The 45 grain mag bullet used in Winchester's sub-sonic load is a hair longer than the 40 grain LR bullet so the mag bullet has to spin faster to get stable. We influence the bullet's spin rate with two factors -- 1) the rate of twist in the rifling and 2) the velocity of the round. The rate of twist in the rifling in your barrel can't be changed. It is probably 1:14 compared to the 1:16 common in 22LR barrels. It was designed to give just the right spin rate to stabilize a bullet of a certain length (the typical 22 mag bullet) going at a certain velocity (or within a given range of velocities commonly used in 22 mag loads). So, unless we go with a heavier or lighter bullet that leaves velocity as the only variable we can change.... which is what they are doing by slowing the bullet down to, in Winchester's case, 1060 fps. So, what happens if one of the variables (in this case, velocity) changes to fall outside the parameters that determined the "right" twist rate for the rifling in your barrel?

You tell us current users are getting good accuracy results .... can't argue with that and ideally the sub-sonic ammo maker has done enough testing and fiddled with bullet length and velocity to get a combo resulting in the best possible accuracy but do you expect it to be anything other than a compromise from all the testing that went into getting just the right combo of rifling twist rate, bullet weight (length) and velocity for the current rifles and ammo on the market?

As I said, we'll see what shakes out when Winchester's sub-sonic loads are actually available. Have you asked your local supplier to order some yet?

http://www.alloutdoor.com/2017/03/2...ent=2017-04-04&utm_campaign=Weekly+Newsletter

.
 
#68 ·
I guess I'll chime in, since everyone else has :D. My Walther KKJ .22 WMR shoots the occasionally available WRF rounds well enough for head shots at 50 yards, and they feed through the magazine just fine, but they are not sub-sonic. Don't know about functionality in the less expensive repeaters out there. I personally would like some sub-sonic WMR loads and would buy a brick or two just for the fun factor and versatility sake, but the versatility and efficiency thing pretty much goes out the window, since I probably own 15 (or more :eek:) rimfires.

Another approach might be the .22 Hornet, which I often load to .22 LR and .22 WMR levels with quite good accuracy (one of my Hornets has a 1:12" twist rate). This is not to make one rifle "rule them all" versatility wise, but rather to use a variety of projectiles (non-lead, cast lead, FMJs, plastic tipped, heavy/light for caliber, etc.) in certain areas or for certain conditions. The round will be a bit louder than the respective rimfire rounds but not terribly so. I'm actually trying to develop similar loads for a recently built .218 Bee, although the need to continue eating food and wearing clothes has definitely left little time for such pursuits.

TBR
 
#69 ·
Sub-sonic rounds are inherently more accurate because they are less susceptible to wind effects
Not really correct...yes wind deflection has an effect on accuracy as it does on all calibers but it does not control potential accuracy.

The 45 grain mag bullet used in Winchester's sub-sonic load is a hair longer than the 40 grain LR bullet so the mag bullet has to spin faster to get stable.
No rifle is made to handle only one weight of bullet. The 22 mag is designed with a twist to handle a range of bullet weight with the average weight in the middle. Most likely Winchester chose the 45 grain weight to give the round more penetrating and killing power at such a low speed.

The 17 HMR is more accurate because it leaves the barrel above the transonic state and retains that position to the target at general target distances. Once it is forced to come down into the transonic area it then becomes unstable and accuracy suffers.

A subsonic round leaves the barrel in a subsonic state, not having to go through a transonic state is what makes it more accurate than standard velocity ammo.

Long range shooters take great pains to keep their bullet above the transonic state, thus getting good accuracy at great distances. A 22 LR or 22 Magnum round that is subsonic should be more accurate at shorter distances than standard velocity rounds. Bullet design and shape will also play a large part just how long a bullet will stay subsonic or above Mach-1. A 17 grain 17HMR will stay above the transonic zone out to 250 yards where as 40 grain 22 Mag JSP will hit the transonic zone at about 160 yards.
 
#76 ·
Sub-sonic rounds are inherently more accurate because they are less susceptible to wind effects
Not really correct...yes wind deflection has an effect on accuracy as it does on all calibers but it does not control potential accuracy.
I believe Sophia correlated wind effects with accuracy as she used the word "because".

Wind deflection's effect on accuracy cannot be a blanket statement equally involving "all calibers".

Differing from centerfire, 22 long rifle rimfire operates around the speed of sound and as such the greater slowing of high velocity 22lr bullets due from air resistance versus the lesser effected subsonic 22lr ammunition means 22lr subsonic are subjected to a lowered wind deflection time span.

http://www.thewindisnotyourfriend.com/read/long-rifle-wind.html
 
#72 ·
Gosh, it's surprising just how advanced our ammo manufacturers were in the 19th century, isn't it? That's when the .22 Short, Long, and Long Rifle were introduced. That was also when bullet weights of 29 grains for the Short and Long, and 40 grains for the Long Rifle were standardized. Even better, those weights, the rifling twist, and case dimensions were pretty much standardized for Black Powder loads.

Only in the past 20-25 years have we been introducing boutique loadings for any of the three.

The .22 WMR was introduced in 1959. It's purpose was to have a longer-ranged, more powerful rim-fire.

Do we NEED a sub-sonic .22 WMR? Probably not. Far more people own .22 Long-rifle firearms than .22 WMR, and they have the ammunition in that caliber. Anyone actually putting that much thought into uses of calibers would simply go "OK, I'll get a .22 Long Rifle." The mythical person who can only "afford" a single rifle would be far better suited to own a .22 Long Rifle. After all, until 1959, that WAS their only choice.

It's simple, if you think about it, as to why manufacturers aren't willing to develop yet another load. We've just now started to see rim-fire ammunition on shelves again. .22 WMR has, until spring, been hard to get through distributors, as well. If I'm running extra shifts to fill a demand that isn't met yet, why would I want to think about diverting resources/machinery/time to meet a demand that seems to be represented by "I'd buy a brick, just to have it"?

One cannot just "import ammunition", either. It needs approval by BATFE, and the State Department. It costs to ship it. As well, Distributors have to be willing to buy it, and have it on hand. Then, local shops have to be willing to buy from them, make space available, and showcase the new load.

Thinking that "we'll ask, and they'll make" is NOT what happens. It's not just the manufacturers who need to be in line. If everyone here on Rimfire.com were to buy that brick, it wouldn't meet a week's production of a line.

If the political atmosphere improves enough, someone may try to import niche rounds like from Australia. I seem to remember a "Power Point" that was imported for several years from there. Unfortunately, it never sold well enough to stay in the American line.

Far too much entitlement wound up in this. :rolleyes:
 
#73 ·
That Aussie subsonic power point Winchester 22LR HP has not been mentioned by Aussie members that I have seen in a long time. It was very accurate and sought after by many on here. Strange that it has vanished, 22LR shooters are entitled to have a couple dozen types of ammo to choose from.
 
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