Hämmerli Xesse or Other? - Page 4 - RimfireCentral.com Forums

Go Back   RimfireCentral.com Forums > >

Join Team RFC to remove these ads.
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #46  
Old 03-11-2017, 02:35 PM
LDBennett
NRA Member - Click Here To Join!

Join Date: 
Apr 2003
Location: 
Hesperia, CA
Posts: 
6,054
TPC Rating: 
0% (0)


Log in to see fewer ads
As I pull through the first stage and then hesitate, the pull level to me is not noticeable. All I feel is the force required to get through the second stage. The numbers you list seem much higher than I would imagine mine is. In fact mine is (just now measured it):

First stage 1 lb 12 ounces
Complet pull through 2 lb 13 ounces
Delta for second stage 1 lb 1 ounce

While your stated numbers are different and Larrys number on the Hammerli XESSES are different do note that the complete pull through on the Hammerli version is 2 lb 4 ounces, a mere 1/2 lb difference.

Now I have owned this Sig Trailside from new in June 2000. It was the first one my Local dealer got. Unfortunately it is the 4 1/2 inch barrel version, as I wanted the longer barrel version, but it has the Ergo grips. I preformed the trigger adjustment myself, as it came adjusted as a single stage. I never measured it as a single stage. I hate guns with lighter triggers and I am not a fan of less than a pound triggers...too easy to get an accidental firing. My older Thompson Contender came with a much less than 2 pound trigger pull and when I use it I have to be really careful.

Triggers are interesting to me and I have actually made a study of them. I pretty much know exactly how most triggers work and what has to be done to make them better thanks to an expensive AGI course I took several years back.

LDBennett
Reply With Quote
  #47  
Old 03-11-2017, 02:39 PM
DSGrouse

Join Date: 
Jun 2014
Posts: 
41
TPC Rating: 
0% (0)
Quote:
Originally Posted by LDBennett View Post
As I pull through the first stage and then hesitate, the pull level to me is not noticeable. All I feel is the force required to get through the second stage. The numbers you list seem much higher than I would imagine mine is. In fact mine is (just now measured it):

First stage 1 lb 12 ounces
Complet pull through 2 lb 13 ounces
Delta for second stage 1 lb 1 ounce

While your stated numbers are different and Larrys number on the Hammerli XESSES are different do note that the complete pull through on the Hammerli version is 2 lb 4 ounces, a mere 1/2 lb difference.

Now I have owned this Sig Trailside from new in June 2000. It was the first one my Local dealer got. Unfortunately it is the 4 1/2 inch barrel version, as I wanted the longer barrel version, but it has the Ergo grips. I preformed the trigger adjustment myself, as it came adjusted as a single stage. I never measured it as a single stage. I hate guns with lighter triggers and I am not a fan of less than a pound triggers...too easy to get an accidental firing. My older Thompson Contender came with a much less than 2 pound trigger pull and when I use it I have to be really careful.

Triggers are interesting to me and I have actually made a study of them. I pretty much know exactly how most triggers work and what has to be done to make them better thanks to an expensive AGI course I took several years back.

LDBennett
So yours is really not that far off from Larry's tuned trigger. Nicely done. The reset on the trigger keeps from bump firing, but I agree .75lbs can be a bit hairy if you are not used to using it.

I just picked the Xeese up yesterday. I will give the two a good comparison shake down over the next few weeks.
Reply With Quote
  #48  
Old 03-11-2017, 03:42 PM
LDBennett
NRA Member - Click Here To Join!

Join Date: 
Apr 2003
Location: 
Hesperia, CA
Posts: 
6,054
TPC Rating: 
0% (0)
Not to belabor this topic, but the thing I like about two stage triggers is the safety of them. The entire first stage is moving the sear up to the edge of the shelf on the hammer.That means all that trigger motion is really creep and more importantly sear engagement which is safety. The more creep (sear engagement) the safer the trigger. Then the second stage can be really light like a pound or so. Lets see how your Xesses compares to my old Trailside.

LDBennett
Reply With Quote
 
  #49  
Old 03-13-2017, 01:16 PM
Naughtygoose

Join Date: 
Feb 2017
Posts: 
39
TPC Rating: 
0% (0)
What about a beretta 87?
Reply With Quote
  #50  
Old 03-13-2017, 02:00 PM
Vincent's Avatar
Vincent
NRA Member - Click Here To Join!

Moderator
Join Date: 
May 2002
Location: 
Middle TN
Posts: 
36,783
TPC Rating: 
100% (3)
Just a personal comment.

I will again say this is personal and not intended to say one pistol is better than another as I think after a certain point it becomes opinion and not related to fact.

For instance. I have no problem with saying the S&W 41 of old is a nicer pistol than a Target Model Ruger when looking at fit and finish. Is it more accurate? Not in my experience. When $$$ and grip angle come into the picture I have no reason to own a 41.

A few years back I traded for a SIG Trailside and did most of what can be done to one and it was a nice pistol. Nice enough I traded guns I liked for it. Last year I traded it.

In 2002 I finally got the message that it was unlikely I would work again and in 2003 I was approved for SS Disability after, what has to be record, 6 weeks. In fact they paid me 2 years back as that was the farthest they could. My 10/22 was dying (I thought) and I had sold a Ruger MKII and many other guns to keep a roof over my head and something to eat. Deciding I may have to live with what I could then get to get me through the coming years I found a preowned (looked to be unfired other than factory) Ruger "Slabside" KMK678GC with everything including the factory supplied fired case. Later I did my own trigger job on it. I have done nothing to make it more accurate. Barrel, crown, chamber and bolt are all stock. This is how IT shoots:




TEN shot groups. Second group is slightly smaller than the first even though it was shot with cheap Fed 510 and the first with SK Pistol Match! Lest anyone think I am an amazing shot they were both shot from a rest at 30 yds (target says 25 but later we found that our club range had been improperly measured!). Groups were not out of the ordinary for these ammos on the days shot. I have not shot groups since the trigger job and it is possible it might shoot a little better for me now but I can not say that is so.

Remarkedly it has shot some 2" 100 yard groups. Not bad with a 4X scope. Hitting clay bird is a 9 for 10 or 10 for 10 shot thing @ 100 yards. So easy it only gets interesting when you start shooting the pieces left over and it is deadly on Saltine Crackers at 100 also. All from a rest of course. Hitting saltine crackers off hand with any pistol is pretty tough at 100 yards but not impossible. I used to shoot almost as well from sitting with elbows braced on my knees but my spine no longer allows that for very long. Both targets and the 100 yard shooting as well as 200 yard shooting at larger targets have all been witnessed by several RFC Members and they also did well with it. "Brent" was thinking I was some kind of pistol wizard or something when he saw me hit a small freon tank 10 for 10 @ 200. I sat him at my bench and showed him what I was doing and he hit it 8 for 10 the first magazine and 9 for 10 the second mag if memory serves. I should have left him thinking I was a handgun wizard!! Another member here went out and bought the same model pistol after breaking many clays at 100 with mine.


Since I was an 11 year old kid in 1963 and my dad bought a Ruger 4" I have always liked the grip angle on these pistols and I shoot them better than a 41 for instance.

While I am sure there are pistols that will shoot better groups. I doubt that there is a better deal for dollars spent. I have now had this pistol for 13 years while others have come and gone. I am quite sure I will own it until my daughter gets it when I leave this rock.
__________________
It is what you learn AFTER you "Know it all" that has true value!



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SzOn6GqNFdk

Last edited by Vincent; 03-13-2017 at 02:46 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #51  
Old 03-13-2017, 03:55 PM
mparker
US Air Force Veteran

Join Date: 
Jun 2012
Location: 
Springfield & Cape Charles, VA
Posts: 
849
TPC Rating: 
100% (1)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Naughtygoose View Post
What about a beretta 87?
Terrible trigger!
Reply With Quote
  #52  
Old 03-13-2017, 05:28 PM
LDBennett
NRA Member - Click Here To Join!

Join Date: 
Apr 2003
Location: 
Hesperia, CA
Posts: 
6,054
TPC Rating: 
0% (0)
The 87T is not a replacement for the 89. It is a design deviation from the plinker Cheetah. The trigger has TONS!! of smooth creep and NO over travel stop. You pull the trigger and you have no indication at all where the hammer might drop. The sear needs a trigger job and the trigger needs an over travel screw adjustment. I modified a 89 trigger to fit and did the trigger job on the sear. Then the trigger pull was very much better.

But what a nightmare to put this bugger back together after the trigger change. It was so complex that I made notes for use in the future.

Then there is the Beretta lies about the weight. An acceptable target gun weighs about 40 ounces. Beretta advertises that but in reality it is closer to 30 ounces. Weight equal steadiness during aiming. I stuck a bigger red dot on it and that helped some. There is a place for weights under the barrel but I have never seen any offered in the US (maybe today???).

I am of the belief that the "T" in the 87T name is for tactical and not target. The trigger is no hindrance when shooting fast at tactical targets. The gun looks more tactical than classical target.

LDBennett
Reply With Quote
  #53  
Old 03-20-2017, 08:47 AM
DSGrouse

Join Date: 
Jun 2014
Posts: 
41
TPC Rating: 
0% (0)
Quote:
Originally Posted by LDBennett View Post
The 87T is not a replacement for the 89. It is a design deviation from the plinker Cheetah. The trigger has TONS!! of smooth creep and NO over travel stop. You pull the trigger and you have no indication at all where the hammer might drop. The sear needs a trigger job and the trigger needs an over travel screw adjustment. I modified a 89 trigger to fit and did the trigger job on the sear. Then the trigger pull was very much better. <edit: Two 1911's built for marvel unit 1 and 2, number 2 first, and number 1 second. Both sold off, 2 because it was not a 1, and 1 because i was offered stupid money>

But what a nightmare to put this bugger back together after the trigger change. It was so complex that I made notes for use in the future.

Then there is the Beretta lies about the weight. An acceptable target gun weighs about 40 ounces. Beretta advertises that but in reality it is closer to 30 ounces. Weight equal steadiness during aiming. I stuck a bigger red dot on it and that helped some. There is a place for weights under the barrel but I have never seen any offered in the US (maybe today???).

I am of the belief that the "T" in the 87T name is for tactical and not target. The trigger is no hindrance when shooting fast at tactical targets. The gun looks more tactical than classical target.

LDBennett
That is selling it a bit thick. The trigger on a 87T is fine, far better than a stock MKII or MKIII. Yes it is a long roll, but the break on mine is clean and crisp. The reset is easy to remember. Calling it a tactical gun does it a great dis-service. Any 22 that can hold dime sized groups at 50ft off hand (with practice) is a bit better than the tactical label you have foisted upon it.

This is my current stable of 22lr pistols.

What is not seen are the 3 VQ pistols i have sold off. Two VQ manufacture, one I assembled out of all VQ parts. 2 ruger MKIII, Two Ruger MKII all tuned with VQ or tac sol parts. Several Smith revolvers, 17, 43 and a Dan Wesson in 22lr with 2,4,6,8 inch full underlug barrels. All of these i have sold off and pared my stable down to those seen in the picture.

You have lauded your trigger knowledge. At the same time you hold in disdain single stage triggers, or those that do not fit your exact likes. You have also admitted that you don't really do any double action trigger practice. I do, I start my range sessions with 300-400 rounds out of my 617 in double action. I follow up usually with 200-300 out of my Smith Victory. Then Usually my Beretta 87 and then the trail side or woodsman. These triggers correlate very nicely to the trigger pulls of their center fire cousins. That trigger time, and sight picture time make one a much better center fire pistol shooter.

I will admit, that if my focus was on 22lr bulls-eye I might focus on a excellent 2 stage European trigger. Then that could be the primary factor as to how good a the revolver or pistol is. However bulls eye style 22lr pistol is relatively tiny niche market in the US. Most folks, use 22lr for plinking. Very few take the time to try and achieve dime sized groups at 25 ft let alone 50ft or even 25yds. Most simply are happy with fist sized groups. On top of that, most people who utilize 22lr for training are doing so for class games like ipsc and are simply happy with 8 inch plate hits. Given all that. A trigger that is better, but equates easily to centerfire guns is a valued thing. Discrediting a gun because of the same is fairy narrow sighted, and completely understandable given your preference in 22lr.

Last edited by DSGrouse; 03-20-2017 at 08:55 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #54  
Old 03-20-2017, 09:26 AM
LDBennett
NRA Member - Click Here To Join!

Join Date: 
Apr 2003
Location: 
Hesperia, CA
Posts: 
6,054
TPC Rating: 
0% (0)
DSGrouse:

The 87T is purported by Beretta to be is a semi-auto
target pistol and not a double action revolver. It needs a trigger that is representative of a semi-auto target gun, not one that satisfies a need to practice double action revolver usage. If double action practice is what you desire then practice with a double action revolver not a gun sold to be an accurate semi-auto target gun where precise trigger control give best accuracy results.

But where is double action used to best advantage? In tactical shooting not accurate small group target shooting. Double action revolver shooting is probably more niche than single stage or two stage precision target shooting.

The 87T trigger serves your purposes but not mine or the many other who report here who have modified their 87T with at least an over travel stop in the trigger.

Beretta missed the boat on this gun by a long shot:

It is not the weight Beretta advertises by about 10 ounces light
It is a poor target gun with the trigger provided
It is over priced being priced with some of the better Target pistols when it is based on the Cheetah, the plinker gun.

Having said that, when the trigger is fixed and a bit of weight added via a red dot, it is an accurate target gun equivalent to the price point it sells at. But these mods and additions are not free. To be clear I now like mine.

But if a newby buys one of these expecting a semi-auto target gun they will be disappointed when they compare it to some of the other target style 22 on the market that their buddies own. I point this out to help avoid this disappointment. But someone who just has to have an 87T can buy it, modify the trigger and add a little weight and make a good target 22 pistol out of it. And you can have your double action revolver practice gun right out of the box.

LDBennett
Reply With Quote
  #55  
Old 03-20-2017, 10:25 AM
gregbenner

Join Date: 
Apr 2016
Posts: 
443
TPC Rating: 
100% (1)
Quote:
Originally Posted by DSGrouse View Post
I start my range sessions with 300-400 rounds out of my 617 in double action. ....... That trigger time, and sight picture time make one a much better center fire pistol shooter.

I will admit, that if my focus was on 22lr bulls-eye I might focus on a excellent 2 stage European trigger.

A trigger that is better, but equates easily to centerfire guns is a valued thing. Discrediting a gun because of the same is fairy narrow sighted, and completely understandable given your preference in 22lr.
DSG, you make some excellent points. Several High Master Bullseye shooters I know recommend practice with a double action revolver, Shooting DA can definitely help with pulling a trigger without jerking it. I recently purchased a 617 and shoot it DA. Great gun!!

I have several guns with two stage triggers, and although I love them, do not find them as significantly better as some seem to. My Hammerli 208 is single stage, as are my two 41s, and Victor, and they are wonderful. I have also noticed that all guns of the same manufacturer are not the same. I think it can be a big mistake to equate one's experience with one example to an entire model range.

As I have started competing in Bullseye, I realize your comments re: equating a trigger to a centerfire gun are correct. a 3 1/2 trigger in a 45 is much different than a 2 lb trigger in a 22!. Competition is fun and revealing. I am finding it was definitely easier to be a "master" when I didn't compete
Reply With Quote
  #56  
Old 03-20-2017, 05:28 PM
LDBennett
NRA Member - Click Here To Join!

Join Date: 
Apr 2003
Location: 
Hesperia, CA
Posts: 
6,054
TPC Rating: 
0% (0)
Two things:

The BIG advantage (perhaps not to a competitor) is that two stage triggers have tons of sear engagement which is a safe trigger. When single stage triggers are made to have no creep and a light pull, those triggers are on the dangerous side because the sear engagement is so tiny (to eliminate creep).

If "experts" feel practice with a double action trigger is helpful, I would never suggest otherwise. But to sell a semi-auto 22LR target pistol with a crappy trigger that emulates a double action trigger pull is a sin, in my opinion. If it is double action practice a shooter needs then let him practice with a double action revolver. The Beretta 87T cheats a buyer out of an excellent target trigger.

But we all get to choose. A potential purchaser needs to know that this 87T trigger is unlike any other semi-auto target gun trigger. Some will like it, and many others may not.

LDBennett
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off




All times are GMT -5. The time now is 11:20 PM.

Privacy Policy

DMCA Notice

Powered by vBulletin
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Search Engine Optimisation provided by DragonByte SEO (Lite) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2017 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.
vBulletin Optimisation provided by vB Optimise (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2017 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.
Copyright ©2000-2015 RimfireCentral.com
x