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Old 02-12-2017, 02:07 AM
northernexposur

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What was the original finish on an Overton stock?



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I bought a darn near perfect 1967 International at a gun show today. The only thing wrong with it was someone decided to put some sort of high gloss finish on the stock. To my surprise it wiped off with rubbing alcohol and some elbow grease. The only problem is now I have a 50 year old International stock that looks like dull, bare walnut. Does anyone know what the original finish would have been? I want it to look exactly as it did when it was new.

Last edited by northernexposur; 02-16-2017 at 08:59 PM.
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Old 02-16-2017, 08:58 PM
northernexposur

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Looking at some old 10-22 advertisements from the 60's, they say the stock is a hand-rubbed oil finish. Anybody have an idea of what oil was used? Boiled Linseed oil? Tung oil? Lin-Speed oil?
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Old 02-17-2017, 07:47 AM
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I can't tell you what Ruger used back in the day, but my vintage Walnut stocks have received several rubs with Howards Feed-N-Wax.I have never seen a bad reaction on any oil finished stock that I own.
Do not put it on a poly or varnished finish! Only on bare wood or older pure oil finishes.
There will be some who disagree, and push some super finish that takes 2 weeks to complete. But, I'm lazy and it has worked for me, a looong time.
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Old 02-17-2017, 08:31 AM
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If alky took it off it must have been shellac. I doubt it would be typical BLO or TO. THey take too long to dry. Probably a modified type like the wiping oils or varnishes that dry quick. Go to the Stock Finishing and Modifying forum and read up. Tons of great info. I always used True Oil and knocked the gloss down. But after reading about rattle can lacquer I tried it on a couple stocks and they came out great. Satin looks like a hand rubbed oil finish.

Last edited by scooter22; 02-17-2017 at 02:54 PM.
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Old 02-17-2017, 01:38 PM
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This is an original finish Overton. I don't know what the finish is, but it definitely is tinted. I though about stripping it, but decided to leave it as is, dings, scratches and all. I was gifted it from my generous fellow member Amblerrl when I bought a receiver and trigger from him to put this rifle together from all used parts.
What she looked like before a little TLC:

After:



She makes a neat little sleeper.
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Old 02-18-2017, 01:01 AM
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Good for you

Quote:
Originally Posted by tinman View Post
I can't tell you what Ruger used back in the day, but my vintage Walnut stocks have received several rubs with Howards Feed-N-Wax.I have never seen a bad reaction on any oil finished stock that I own.
Do not put it on a poly or varnished finish! Only on bare wood or older pure oil finishes.
There will be some who disagree, and push some super finish that takes 2 weeks to complete. But, I'm lazy and it has worked for me, a looong time.
While you personally have not experienced any adverse effects using Howard's Feed-N-Wax they are there whether you recognize them or not because chemical properties don't change unless they are altered.

This sticky about HFN sticky goes over the product.

http://rimfirecentral.com/rfcftp/sto...D%20OTHERS.pdf

And what Mineral Oil is.

http://www.rimfirecentral.com/forums...09&postcount=7

"Pure" unaltered vegetable/plant "oil" finishes never were used on wood unless there was nothing else to be had which was pretty rare as tallow, which was made almost every time you cooked something, was mixed with Beeswax which you could find just about anywhere and stored well, was used instead.

That stuff could be used on wood, leather, hides to water proof them and you could also eat both of em.

I don't know of nor ever heard of any manufacturer of either mass produced wooden stocks or mass produced non-engineered wooden furniture that has or is using pure unaltered vegetable/plant oils. If one wanted to use either of those they have to mixed with a resin to make them work. As soon as you do that they become a varnish and no longer belong to any of the vegetable/plant oil families.

If somebody has an actual plant/vegetable oil that has been only slightly modified to perform as a wood finish it sure was not done by any manufacturer that makes consumer mass produced wooden stocked firearms or military wooden stocked firearms either.

Going back, like to the Egyptian days, the resin added was normally Turpentine Oil which is abundant and easily refined from Turpentine. Even then lacquer was the preferred finish.

The major use and where the money was was using them as either a food additive or "dipping" oil for like bread. Also if you were really well off financially they worked good on stopping rust on iron or steel armor but needed to be replaced every day so you had to tote a lot of it around and keep it sealed until you used it or it would go rancid quickly.

Just because products are advertised as 100% XXXX oil does not mean it is not modified from the way nature made it.

This is 100% Linseed Oil with only a very slight modification to make it edible.



Tung Oil looks pretty much the same.

Wanna put that on your unfinished wooden gunstock?

There are two stages for Chemical Coatings. The first is dry to the touch, sometimes called hard, which is used as a measurement on how long a chemical coating(s) takes before you can put on another coat without possibly screwing it up or for sure not allowing the previous coat(s) to reach their interim design specs. That ranges anywhere from 30 minutes to overnight.

If somebody chooses to view that stage of the topcoat/finish as complete then so be it but it is not.

The second stage is how long they take to cure which is the time it takes on Planet Earth for chemical coatings to completely reach whatever final stage they are designed to be at. Regardless of the chemical coating they cure through oxidation via being exposed to oxygen.

When that point is reached it is then complete.

That time frame runs right around between 10 days and 2 weeks for reactive finishes with optimal/controlled conditions but 3 weeks is recommended for when finishes are applied under non-optimal/controlled conditions by a human being. Evaporative finishes, and there are only 2, go from 6 days to 2 weeks depending on the formulation(s) but again the 3 week "rule" is still recommended.

During that 3 week period they can be handled without damage, within reason, but rubbing or polishing them out or adding wax to them for a final protective layer is not only not recommended but warned about. On new automobiles or repairs on non-new ones the warning is 10 weeks.

During that time no additional labor time is required. Just patience.

There are a HUGE number of differences between them but the quality of the topcoat/finish is not one of em. If it is a "super" finish it is not because of the cure time.

Natural plant/vegetable oils that are cold pressed and only slightly modified do have their place in wood finishing. While they are not film forming, are only slightly more robust then wax, and need constant maintenance they do present the visual illusion of depth well and also for the most part enhance subtle colors but they don't play well with film forming finishes in case you want to put one on over em. They are only used on bare wood or to refresh themselves.

Niche market but some folks like em better then BLO and lots of folks for wooden knife handles and wooden pistol grips. The more educated woodworkers also use that stuff on things they need to be "food safe" like cutting boards or salad bowls instead of Mineral Oil.

If that is what you want, which IMO Howard's attempts to simulate, then you are far better off using one of them then anything with Mineral Oil in it. At least you will be using something pretty close to what what "Mother Nature" has evolved over time instead of a refined motor oil with some really small amounts of waxes, including stuff again made from petroleum in it which just junks up the wood even more.

These folks, one of only a few, make that type of product:

https://www.realmilkpaint.com/shop/o...ung-chinawood/

Tung Oil or wiping varnishes that simulate it, is heads and heels above either Linseed oil or the wiping varnishes that simulate it.

If you are bound and determined to use stuff that contains Mineral Oil in it, Johnson's Baby Oil is 100% refined Mineral Oil and a whole lot cheaper then stuff that contains it.

noremf(George)

Last edited by noremf; 02-19-2017 at 07:07 AM.
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Old 02-18-2017, 01:16 AM
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My little girl has several coats of Renaissance on it, that's why she has such a nice soft glow. I threw my Howard's in the trash a long time ago, it's junk. You might as well rub Vaseline on your stock, same same.
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Old 02-21-2017, 11:08 PM
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After considerable research and talking to a serious collector I've come to the conclusion that the original finish was most likely hand-rubbed linseed oil with a clear lacquer topcoat. I rubbed on a few coats of linseed oil and then compared it to 2 other Overton stocks that have original finishes on them. The color is almost exactly the same. After a few weeks to allow it to thoroughly cure I'll put on a few coats of clear lacquer and hopefully I'll have a near perfect factory match.
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Old 02-22-2017, 02:19 AM
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Linseed Oil

Quote:
Originally Posted by northernexposur View Post
After considerable research and talking to a serious collector I've come to the conclusion that the original finish was most likely hand-rubbed linseed oil with a clear lacquer topcoat. I rubbed on a few coats of linseed oil and then compared it to 2 other Overton stocks that have original finishes on them. The color is almost exactly the same. After a few weeks to allow it to thoroughly cure I'll put on a few coats of clear lacquer and hopefully I'll have a near perfect factory match.
Just curious but when you say "linseed oil" which one of these do you mean?

Boiled Linseed Oil

Cold pressed Linseed Oil like you can get from The Real Milk Company but cannot buy in any "box" store?

Lin-Speed® oil? That finish was favored by a number of folks, including Ruger® in the 60-70's. Still around and every once in awhile will see like at Bass Pro Shops.

A wiping varnish such as Waterlox®, MinWax® Antique Oil Finish, MinWax® Natural Wood Finish or others with Chemical Coatings "house" names such as those that you can buy in a "box" store?

noremf(George)

Last edited by noremf; 02-22-2017 at 02:53 AM.
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Old 02-22-2017, 03:50 PM
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From what George just said, seems like Linspeed is what you want/need. I see it is also available through Amazon and Brownell's.

The above information is provided as a public service for those who might be looking for Linspeed. As George reminded me, the deed is already done on the OP's stock, for better or worse.
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Old 02-22-2017, 05:04 PM
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When I was in art class in junior high school (I guess they call that middle school these days) I had some oil paints. I remember that the linseed oil I had to use with my paints smelled really good. I think it actually was edible. It was completely different stuff from the boiled linseed oil I have for using on gun stocks.
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Old 02-22-2017, 09:16 PM
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I always thought Ruger uses used motor oil... strip it..sand a little and apply the finish of your choice and be forever proud and happy... done.
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Old 02-22-2017, 10:54 PM
northernexposur

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50/50 Boiled Linseed oil & mineral spirits is what I used. After my research I had to decide between Linspeed and Linseed oil. Since companies are always looking to keep costs as low as possible, I can't imagine manufacturers used a much more expensive product like the Linspeed. Since they were cranking out thousands of stocks, it makes more sense a much cheaper, generic product like linseed oil was used. I assume the lacquer topcoat was meant to add a layer of water resistance.


Last edited by northernexposur; 02-22-2017 at 11:04 PM.
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Old 02-22-2017, 11:36 PM
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It looks pretty darn good to me.
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Old 02-23-2017, 08:13 AM
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Unit cost per total cost of a raw material

Quote:
Originally Posted by northernexposur View Post
50/50 Boiled Linseed oil & mineral spirits is what I used. After my research I had to decide between Linspeed and Linseed oil. Since companies are always looking to keep costs as low as possible, I can't imagine manufacturers used a much more expensive product like the Linspeed. Since they were cranking out thousands of stocks, it makes more sense a much cheaper, generic product like linseed oil was used. I assume the lacquer topcoat was meant to add a layer of water resistance.

FYI:

I ran plants and ultimately was a director for the Division Sherwin Williams Co. that made transparent wood finishes and all the chemicals that were used in them.

We, like all other Chemical Coatings "houses", analyzed virtually all products that might compete with ours whether they be "boutique" ones or not to determine if the forumlation(s) are better, or the niche market that they might be in would be worth taking them out.

Research for our products not only included lab work and aging simulations but quite a bit of customer visits. While the end manufacturer bought the stuff and was the first line for complaints and resolution, we, who made it, were liable for any recalls. That policy, not only for Chemical Coatings still exists today.

During those customer visits finding out what they were using, if it was not our products, and why was a prime objective.

The cost of the raw material is nowhere near the cost of the Manufacturing Cycle Time which is a major cost in the Work In Process (WIP) total cost. In fact Manufacturing Cycle time is the second largest cost in a large number of products.

While products are sitting around they are not making any money but rather are costing you money, and it is not uncommon that the Manufacturing Cycle Time cost dwarfs the unit cost of a raw material used during that time.

You can't just look at the unit cost of a raw material but the total cost of it which includes in-house labor, carrying costs etc. while it is sitting around doing nothing whether it be in a warehouse, on the manufacturing floor, or on a Work in Process product.

I don't have any documentation to prove it as I am retired but the Manufacturing Cycle time, and the quantity needed for an application for Lin-Speed® was about 1/10th what it would have been if either BLO or Tru-Oil®.

Looks good so far. Good luck on your next step.

noremf(George)

PS: Few firearms manufacturers, then and now, make their own stocks. Off hand I can't think of one that does.

I know for a fact that neither Anschutz nor CZ does. The total cost for the equipment, expertise, acquisition of the raw materials, liability etc. is far more then buying them as a manufactured sub-component from folks that specialize in making them on a large scale.

Last edited by noremf; 02-24-2017 at 06:09 AM.
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