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Old 01-08-2017, 09:06 AM
jrdoran

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First shot seems to be off; others are OK



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Newbie SW22 Victory shooting at 25 ft NRA target.

I've been practicing for 2 weeks in anticipation of joining the local league. I've shot probably 1000 rounds. I am coming from a 10/22 that I shoot quite well with scope / bench, but this pistol shooting w/o a bench is a whole new deal for me.

Anyhow, what I am seeing consistently is that when I put out a new target and reload a new mag, my first shot is not even close. Not even in the black circle. 2+ following shots, things are better ( not perfect ) but I can dial them in.

The anticipation is what I suspect, but not like the gun has much kick back. Any tips on what I can do to get the first shot to improve ?
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  #2  
Old 01-08-2017, 09:26 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jrdoran View Post
Newbie SW22 Victory shooting at 25 ft NRA target.

I've been practicing for 2 weeks in anticipation of joining the local league. I've shot probably 1000 rounds. I am coming from a 10/22 that I shoot quite well with scope / bench, but this pistol shooting w/o a bench is a whole new deal for me.

Anyhow, what I am seeing consistently is that when I put out a new target and reload a new mag, my first shot is not even close. Not even in the black circle. 2+ following shots, things are better ( not perfect ) but I can dial them in.

The anticipation is what I suspect, but not like the gun has much kick back. Any tips on what I can do to get the first shot to improve ?
Try this: load the pistol and shoot one round into the berm or off target. Shoot the next round for score and see what happens.

In my experience in bench testing many semi autos, I've found that hand chambered rounds and recoil chambered rounds often behave differently.
Or you might be experiencing a cold bore flyer...

Let us know what you find.

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Old 01-08-2017, 08:38 PM
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great suggestion. I assumed it was 'ME', never thought of the first round getting chambered differently.
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Old 01-08-2017, 08:59 PM
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Originally Posted by jrdoran View Post
great suggestion. I assumed it was 'ME', never thought of the first round getting chambered differently.
Well, it might be the Indian and not the arrow... unless you benchrest your first shots with a decent pistol rest like a Ransom rest, it's impossible to tell. It just makes sense to rule in or rule out the gun itself. If you have a rear bag for rifle shooting with bunny ears, it can make for a decent pistol rest.

I will say this, though- in the world of custom 10-22s, I have found that in some rifles, hand charged rounds are so consistently inconsistent that I've developed a habit of using the first round or two as "sight in" rounds and almost never use the first shot from a mag to shoot for score.

Please report your findings back here as I am always interested in hearing what works and how-

Respectfully,

DrGunner
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Old 01-09-2017, 01:59 AM
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First shot off

At 25 feet it is virtually impossible to tell if a shot is off because of the weapon or the shooter. Even with a ransom rest and I am assuming that you are shooting off-hand.

Are you using iron sights or some type of "visual aid" sights such as a reflex, or aimpoint or scope?

Since you did the thread I am going to assume that the first shot variance is clearly visible.

Under that assumption there is one thing you can do to try and determine whether or not it is you or the weapon.

One of the easiest is to shoot say 1/2 a mag, noting where the first shot went, then either lay the pistol down, if possible, or hold it muzzle up with the safety on with your off hand for say 5 minutes.

Go back to your regular shooting stance etc. and shoot the rest of the mag at another target, again noting where the first round went.

If it did not duplicate the first round then it could either be a cold bore first shot, on the first group or first round feed/seating.

If it does then the odds are that what is happening is you.

I shot in competition with pistols for 40 years to the day including IHMSA which is considered by many to be the most difficult. I averaged 2 matches per week, 50 weeks out of the year for roughly 80-100 rounds each weekend. Both with rimfire and centerfire. I was on the Dan Wesson and Remington factory teams for a few years.

Add another 200-250 rounds per week for practice.

Discipline is 5 rounds then wait two minutes then the last 5 on a bank of targets at 25,50,75 and 100 yards for .22's and 50,100,150 and 200 for centerfire. Both with 2 minutes or 5, between target types. You have to change shooting locations.

IE: You shoot 5 then wait then 5 at say the chickens, move to new shooting location then 5 then wait then 5 at the pigs and repeat for the turkeys and then the rams.

It is not uncommon for shooters that have not shot a lot and have not learned to treat each shot as if it were the last shot is determining whether or not you win or lose, to be off on the first shot of every string along with having a good sense for the amount of time left.

Generally the first shot is "rushed" as are the last one or two as the perception is that you are running out of time.

1000 rounds and 2 weeks is not a lot by any means and pistols are a whole lot different then rifles.

IMO and based on those 40 years it rarely is the weapon but never say never.

The good news is that with practice, under the exact conditions that the matches are and again treating each shot as if it were to win the match, your skill level will increase.

noremf(George)

Last edited by noremf; 01-09-2017 at 12:59 PM.
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Old 01-09-2017, 04:47 AM
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Have some one else shoot the pistol. You will know in a hurry. I have never seen a pistol shoot that bad from one shot to the next at such a close distance. No cold bore flier is that far off.

HOLD the pistol firmly, Squeeze the trigger gently. Squeeze so you do not know when its going to fire EVERY SHOT.

Where does the shot go? Low left? How far?

There are charts that show what you could be doing wrong by where the shot ends up. Look at all of your targets and see where it ends up each time.

Keep at it, I am a bullseye shooter. Have been since 1987.

One in the white (off in the buckwheat) is not too bad for a new shooter.

When I started All in the black was my goal. So after a while you will get them all in the black. What you need is all in the 10 or X, so start that right now, shoot for the X.

6:00 hold? Iron sights?

Enjoy!

David

Last edited by david_root2000; 01-09-2017 at 04:53 AM.
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  #7  
Old 01-09-2017, 06:36 AM
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My 2 cents worth

I have a rifle that does the same thing. After I get 1 or 2 shots down the bore its a one holer. If its common for rifles its common for pistols. After you lay down a layer of jacket metal your accuracy comes in. You can try this: when you clean your gun just clean out the powder fouling and leave the Jacket metal in the bore. Not many guns have first shot accuracy.
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Old 01-21-2017, 05:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jrdoran View Post
Newbie SW22 Victory shooting at 25 ft NRA target.

I've been practicing for 2 weeks in anticipation of joining the local league. I've shot probably 1000 rounds. I am coming from a 10/22 that I shoot quite well with scope / bench, but this pistol shooting w/o a bench is a whole new deal for me.

Anyhow, what I am seeing consistently is that when I put out a new target and reload a new mag, my first shot is not even close. Not even in the black circle. 2+ following shots, things are better ( not perfect ) but I can dial them in.

The anticipation is what I suspect, but not like the gun has much kick back. Any tips on what I can do to get the first shot to improve ?
It is possible that your first shots from a clean pistol may go slightly off POA. Only careful testing can tell you if that is a concern. Since you are shooting at 25 ft, I think it would barely noticeable, since such an effect might be only 1-2" @ 50yds. In local matches, we get sighters, and in others, none, so for the latter, make sure your barrel is conditioned before firing that first shot.

That being said, it is more likely you need a few shots to "settle in", and you usually don't get them. The first one counts! That is why it is important to develop a formal shot plan, that you follow step by step to be sure you are as consistent as you can be. There are a lot of training sources on line, from the AMU, marines and others that can help.

Welcome to precision pistol shooting!
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  #9  
Old 02-09-2017, 11:32 AM
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langenc
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This is not a clean pistol problem. It happens on second mags also..
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  #10  
Old 02-11-2017, 08:34 PM
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It s a known issue with all semi-auto pistols.

According to a video by Massad Ayoob, Wiley Clapp named it 4 +1 syndrome.

When cycling by hand the slide and other components come into a slightly different alignment than when fired.

He also recommends when testing for accuracy to shoot 5 and take the best three as to what the pistol is capable of with the given ammunition because of the 4+1 and the likelihood of uncalled human error.

Paraphrasing what he says in https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Jm4xXElrlsw about 12:00 minutes in.
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Old 02-11-2017, 09:36 PM
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Get a good grip, and work the basics, front sight and trigger squeeze. During and after the shot try to keep you sight picture as good as when you decided it was time to shoot.
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  #12  
Old 02-19-2017, 06:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by landshark View Post
It s a known issue with all semi-auto pistols.

According to a video by Massad Ayoob, Wiley Clapp named it 4 +1 syndrome.

When cycling by hand the slide and other components come into a slightly different alignment than when fired.

He also recommends when testing for accuracy to shoot 5 and take the best three as to what the pistol is capable of with the given ammunition because of the 4+1 and the likelihood of uncalled human error.

Paraphrasing what he says in https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Jm4xXElrlsw about 12:00 minutes in.
While it is sometimes possible to show that the first round loaded from a magazine prints to a different point than the remaining self-loaded rounds, it usually is not significant under match conditions. The OP reports that they are "out of the black" which is most likely "operator error" however the OP can try carefully to determine if it is the gun. The problem is, under match conditions, one is given the command to load, and then firing commences. The first one out of the barrel counts. I have seen thousands of shooters shoot precision slow fire with semiautos. I can't recall anyone who doesn't load a mag, release the slide and start to fire away. What else could one do? The first round always is loaded by hand.
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