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  #31  
Old 05-17-2017, 11:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hawkeye57 View Post
That's what I done , when checking to see how a carbine barrel would shoot in my .920 stock. The barrel was a terrible shooter, but I did get a consistent bed.
http://www.rimfirecentral.com/forums...d.php?t=829106 . post #12.

You would think that could be done with epoxy, or rubber. Then put a layer of painters tape in, and make another pad of either material, over the tape. Then it could be moved anywhere you want, and still be the right thickness.
I've been reading your posts as well as 86c's on RTV/Permatex barrel bedding, and since it's not permanent, I'm going to give it a try. I've been looking at the options and doing some more research, and decided that since I'll likely try it a few different ways, varying the amounts of pressure, etc., to use something I can get in larger quantities than the preferred small tubes of Permatex RTV. I ended up getting a couple tubes of this stuff to experiment with:

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0...?ie=UTF8&psc=1

Comparing the technical data sheets for Permatex Ultra Black RTV vs the Red Devil RTV, the "Shore A" hardness looks comparable (30 vs. 27 +/-3), so hopefully it will perform similarly.

Based on reading your threads, it looks like RTV takes quite a while to cure, so I'll probably shoot the gun as-is this weekend,maybe try a little o-ring tuning, and then go for the first round of RTV bedding early next week.
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  #32  
Old 05-18-2017, 08:24 AM
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While I like inner tube rubber for my pads (except when I glassbed them) I had considered using RTV on my Rem Mod 700 .243 in a hand laid fiberglass stock almost 40 years ago. I was going to do it full length. I never got around to trying it

When 86c first posted about doing this I thought I probably should have done it. I had even posted about the thought of doing it about 12 years ago here at RFC. It is an interesting idea.

While I never say never I doubt I will use it on any of my rifles it seems to work for others. I have 4 different thicknesses of inner tube rubber, I can cut them to any shape or stack them. For instance Skeeter27red who owns Rimfire Technologies cuts them into long triangles for his bedding kit and the rubber is supposed to be laid with the fat end towards the muzzle in front of the action.

Actually my two most accurate rifles at 100 yards have the glass bed pad where I describe it. My most accurate 50 yd rifle (African Rose the same one left sighted in for 200 for 2 years while we could plink saltine crackers at that distance) has an inner tube pad.

Obviously there is more than one way to skin a cat right?
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Last edited by Vincent; 05-19-2017 at 01:49 PM.
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  #33  
Old 05-18-2017, 09:08 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vincent View Post

Obviously there is more than one way to skin a cat right?
Yup, I'm trying to leverage whatever info I can find, but after searching everywhere on RFC, I can only find a small handfull of posts about folks using this skinny 18" contoured barrel. I'd like to get bull barrel accuracy from this thing and hopefully end up with the magic formula (and maybe even help other's trying to do the same thing). I may need to think outside of the box, but after all of the searching, I'm not sure I even know what the box is
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  #34  
Old 05-18-2017, 01:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rawhp View Post
I've been reading your posts as well as 86c's on RTV/Permatex barrel bedding, and since it's not permanent, I'm going to give it a try. I've been looking at the options and doing some more research, and decided that since I'll likely try it a few different ways, varying the amounts of pressure, etc., to use something I can get in larger quantities than the preferred small tubes of Permatex RTV. I ended up getting a couple tubes of this stuff to experiment with:

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0...?ie=UTF8&psc=1

Comparing the technical data sheets for Permatex Ultra Black RTV vs the Red Devil RTV, the "Shore A" hardness looks comparable (30 vs. 27 +/-3), so hopefully it will perform similarly.

Based on reading your threads, it looks like RTV takes quite a while to cure, so I'll probably shoot the gun as-is this weekend,maybe try a little o-ring tuning, and then go for the first round of RTV bedding early next week.
If you decide to go that route, the Red Devil will probably be fine .
Just a few tips.
Put the tube in a container of hot water for 10 minutes before using, and it will come out a lot easier. If you use parchment paper on the barrel, Johnsons Paste works best as a release from the bedding. Wait until your ready to put it together, to put the wax on the paper. Don't buff it, and don't let it dry. I have done a few that the paper wouldn't release. They serve the purpose, but don't look good.
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  #35  
Old 05-18-2017, 02:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hawkeye57 View Post
If you decide to go that route, the Red Devil will probably be fine .
Just a few tips.
Put the tube in a container of hot water for 10 minutes before using, and it will come out a lot easier. If you use parchment paper on the barrel, Johnsons Paste works best as a release from the bedding. Wait until your ready to put it together, to put the wax on the paper. Don't buff it, and don't let it dry. I have done a few that the paper wouldn't release. They serve the purpose, but don't look good.
Thanks for the tips! I read your post comparing the different release agents and added it as a favorite on my browser for future reference. Johnson's Paste is on my shopping list.
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  #36  
Old 05-19-2017, 08:33 PM
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Went to the range this morning and tried a couple more pressure pad combinations and testing O-rings on the barrel at 50 yards. Some combinations showed promise, but after several targets, I decided that until I get a more consistent (and effective) technique, none of the testing would be conclusive. I replaced the front aluminum tape pad with the thinnest piece of rubber tire patch I had. It caused the POI to go up about an inch.

I used the technique that seemed to work best, where I physically pulled down the fore end with my left hand, really muscling it into the front bag, plus applying firm downward pressure with my right thumb at the rear, and firm shoulder pressure. I shot this target with Eley Club (top row), CCI SV (second row), and GECO Semi-Auto (third row, plus last bull). I was actually tired at the end from applying so much pressure.

The third bull using GECO felt perfect, in that the scope barely moved off target from shot to shot, and immediately returned to target after the recoil. Obviously I need to figure out exactly what I did setting up for the group, but it definitely didn't happen on next couple of groups .



I have a feeling that if I add about a pound this this gun, it would be a lot easier to shoot. Maybe lead weighting in the barrel channel and some behind the butt pad. I like the light weight, but it definitely feels like the enemy of accuracy in this case. But even as-is, I'm pretty confident that it's capable of 1/2" or less at 50 yards even with cheap ammo (average of the 10 groups is 0.455").

Last edited by rawhp; 05-19-2017 at 10:13 PM.
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  #37  
Old 05-20-2017, 08:16 AM
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In my rifles the upward pressure that causes a 1" upward shift @ 50 has been the minimum that they wanted and a little more was usually better although that varied. I think you are on the right track though.

A heavier rifle will almost always be easier to shoot accurately.

Two kinds of accuracy:

Mechanical accuracy, that which in a perfect world the rifle is capable of shooting. This is why people test pistols in Ransom Rests.

Practical accuracy, that which we are able to shoot a rifle in our normal methods of holding it. This where a heavy rifle almost always will shoot better simply because it is easier to shoot well from a bench. This is also why center fire bench rest has weight classes. It just is very hard to make a very light rifle shoot really well.

Another part of "practical" is that we do not want to lug a 15 pound rifle all day across the desert hunting jack rabbits or through the woods all day chasing squirrels. Actually I DID lug a 11-12 pound rifle for what was probably hundreds of miles across the Mojave Desert of CA chasing jacks back in the 70's and early 80's. A Rem 788 22-250. I was young. Tough. Stupid!!

The other way around my Rem Nylon 11 weighed just a bit over 4 pounds and it was plenty accurate mechanically but it was also very hard to shoot well either from the bench or in field positions. When it comes to building a light rifle be careful what you ask for!!
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  #38  
Old 05-20-2017, 09:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vincent View Post

Two kinds of accuracy:

Mechanical accuracy, that which in a perfect world the rifle is capable of shooting. This is why people test pistols in Ransom Rests.

Practical accuracy, that which we are able to shoot a rifle in our normal methods of holding it. This where a heavy rifle almost always will shoot better simply because it is easier to shoot well from a bench. This is also why center fire bench rest has weight classes. It just is very hard to make a very light rifle shoot really well.
Thanks, great info! I may be closer on the mechanical accuracy based on what I'm seeing, but I'll still do some experiments around the amount of pressure in the current pad location.

Thinking of making 2 RTV pads using Hawkeye57/86c's method with painter's tape underneath; supporting the barrel and hanging a 2 1/2lb and 5lb weight from the front sling mount while it cures; and maybe a few other combinations to give me better control over how much pressure I'm applying, and the ability to switch them out while testing.

As far as weight goes, I'm currently at exactly 7lbs, with the scope, but pretty light up front, balance-wise. My next range session may involve some duct tape and a 1lb weight duct taped to the bottom of the stock's forearm just to test the effect of more weight up front before doing anything permanent. I can move the weight to the butt end too to test that as well. Of course, the final solution won't be visible, since I'm pretty sure SuperStock doesn't include duct tape and a lead weight hanging off of the stock.
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