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Broken in Vs VQ sear. What I found and thoughts

5K views 22 replies 8 participants last post by  redlightrich 
#1 ·
Hello all. I have a few MK pistols. The 2 I am discussing here are a Stainless Target made in June of 2015, which is stock, except for LCI removal. The disco and factory sear are in place.

This gun has near 9000 rounds thru it. I like it alot, but don't love it.

The next one is a 4" blue "standard" model. With this, I have about 600 rounds thru it. It was made Oct of 2012. This gun came from the factory missing the mainspring hammer strut cup. I fixed that, then added a VQ sear and crapola disco bushing by one of the major suppliers of MK pistol parts, who I will not name. The bushing is too loose in the hammer for my liking.

Anyway, I did not take a "before" measurement on the trigger, as I should have. My guess is it was near 5# or so. This gun is extremely accurate. I actually shoot it more accurately than my 5.5 inch target.

Last night, being bored, I took my MK's out, and fished out my cheap Wheeler trigger gauge. I use this gauge as a reference, as opposed to actual numbers.

The factory Stainless Ruger showed a pull of 3.5#. Not bad, a nicely broken in pistol!!

The less used model, with the VQ sear and crummy disco bushing was at 2.5#. It certainly felt lighter than the stock one. To be fair, I am changing out the disco bushing as soon as a proper fitting one arrives.

I have been reading reviews ( one of the large suppliers has reviews available on most of their products) and many said the factory number was 6# before, and 1.3/4 after. These must be new unfired, or low round count guns?

I am going to check again after I install a better bushing.

Yes, the VQ sear is nice. It has the finish attention that the factory sear lacks. Keep in mind, these are mass produced pistols, and if they put the level of detail into finishing that the aftermarket does, the cost of a Mk pistol would rival a 1911.

Personally, I am usually happy with a factory trigger. I try to learn each gun, and as I use them, they break in better.

I bought the bushing a long time ago, and never installed it, so I had that laying around.

I needed to order a 3 dollar part from one of the larger distributors, so to average down the shipping, I ordered some small items. The VQ sear was one of them.

The VQ sear certainly works to lower trigger pull weight. If you desire even lighter, Wolff has a lighter spring for about 4 dollars and shipping.

My guess is the sear and spring and a GOOD bushing will bring you near 90% of the way towards a great trigger, for near 50 dollars. The complete kits are near 150 dollars. Only the most discerning shooters will need the extra 10%.

For my uses, I never need or want an "ultra light" trigger. My modified Kimber 1911 is about as light as I would want. Now, that I think about it, I will measure that pull too.

Other people seem to want a trigger so light, that you begin to question the safety of it.

Using a gunsmith to do the installation of these parts is a good way to be sure you have a safe firearm when finished. They can see issues that amateurs can't or may not. No, these are not hard swaps. However, I learned a long time ago, using an expert makes things smoother. An unsafe trigger is a hazard for everyone.

Thanks for reading my rambling. I will post the result of the trigger weight after I install a proper fitting disco delete bushing. Personally, I am curious how it may affect it.

Rich
 
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#2 ·
Rich I have to ask , are you just plinking or you practicing for competition ? I wish I could shoot that many rounds , not that I don't have the ammo i guess it's time I don't have :) by the way think for the write up, I agree the sear and bushings are all about a guy neeeds for nice trigger pull
 
#3 ·
I have to agree with you that the sear and mag disconnect bushing bring it to the 90% better mark. But I was able to feel a little bit of creep before let off still shooting at little bitty targets when slow and deliberate. I swapped the bushing out for a VQ Mkll hammer bushing. The difference between them was amazing. I have to say that switch brought another 5+ percent to the package. I wish I could have had a trigger pull gauge to compare the differences between each step of the way.
Good to see your results.
 
#4 ·
Yes, the VQ sear is nice. It has the finish attention that the factory sear lacks. Keep in mind, these are mass produced pistols, and if they put the level of detail into finishing that the aftermarket does, the cost of a Mk pistol would rival a 1911.

Rich[/QUOTE]

I can buy a VQ accurizing kit for $120. Subtract the cost to manufacture the OEM parts currently being used and I think it is safe to say that Ruger could provide a good trigger for an additional 50-60 bucks. And their lawyers would be very unhappy.
 
#10 ·
Hello all again. Just some more info for all you to do as you wish with. No I am not training for a shoot. I just like to shoot a lot. I am also fortunate enough to buy a lot of ammo. Anyway, After installing the previous mag disco bushing, I did not like how "sloppy" the hammer appeared, and I got to thinking, I wonder how "sloppy" the factory one was. So I ordered up 2 new bushings from a respected supplier. One was drop in, and one was "tight fit".
Before I attempted to try the new bushings, I reinstalled the factory arrangement, and with it, the hammer had the same side to side movement. Hmmm? I can't help but wonder if the bushing is engineered to be loose inside the hammer. Is this optimal? Probably not, but was it engineered this way? Now I am not sure. If it was, what was the reason? Larger bearing surface? Ease of production? All the above?

I put the drop in from the new supplier in the hammer, and it fit the hammer tighter than the other aftermarket bushing and the factory bushing, unfortunately, the ID ( where the hammer pin goes) was machined wrong, and the hammer pin would not install. I wrote the supplier, and hopefully he makes it right.

Then I decided to completely take my frame back to it's original state, while I wait for my new, new bushing to arrive ( I don't want to install the tight fit bushing yet, until I understand how I think it should be. I also wanted to do something that I missed before installing the parts, which was measure trigger pull. So I did it. I installed factory sear and sear spring, factory bushing and mag disco, and put it all together. Trigger pull? 4.5 pounds.. remember, this gun is a low round count. So factory components, 4.5 pound trigger, with a fairly long take up, and the VQ sear and cheap aftermarket disco bushing is 2.5 pounds, with a very short take up. I am certain most people would opt for the VQ set up, and if I didn't install the cheap disco bushing myself, I may not know any better to not trust it, keep in mind, I grabbed the hammer and rocked it side to side and noticed the slop. Would the trigger be less consistent due to the slop? Most likely yes. Could I tell, or feel it? Probably not. However, I do have a few Mk III pistols, and I am not afraid to take them apart, so I may do a tight bushing/loose bushing test side by side at some point.
One thing I do know, my Target model had a 3.5 # trigger, and I did nothing to that gun but shoot it, a lot!!! Also, I am not certain I love a really light trigger.

Stay tuned!!!
 
#11 ·
Hello all again. Just some more info for all you to do as you wish with. No I am not training for a shoot. I just like to shoot a lot. I am also fortunate enough to buy a lot of ammo. Anyway, After installing the previous mag disco bushing, I did not like how "sloppy" the hammer appeared, and I got to thinking, I wonder how "sloppy" the factory one was. So I ordered up 2 new bushings from a respected supplier. One was drop in, and one was "tight fit".
Before I attempted to try the new bushings, I reinstalled the factory arrangement, and with it, the hammer had the same side to side movement. Hmmm? I can't help but wonder if the bushing is engineered to be loose inside the hammer. Is this optimal? Probably not, but was it engineered this way? Now I am not sure. If it was, what was the reason? Larger bearing surface? Ease of production? All the above?

I put the drop in from the new supplier in the hammer, and it fit the hammer tighter than the other aftermarket bushing and the factory bushing, unfortunately, the ID ( where the hammer pin goes) was machined wrong, and the hammer pin would not install. I wrote the supplier, and hopefully he makes it right.

Then I decided to completely take my frame back to it's original state, while I wait for my new, new bushing to arrive ( I don't want to install the tight fit bushing yet, until I understand how I think it should be. I also wanted to do something that I missed before installing the parts, which was measure trigger pull. So I did it. I installed factory sear and sear spring, factory bushing and mag disco, and put it all together. Trigger pull? 4.5 pounds.. remember, this gun is a low round count. So factory components, 4.5 pound trigger, with a fairly long take up, and the VQ sear and cheap aftermarket disco bushing is 2.5 pounds, with a very short take up. I am certain most people would opt for the VQ set up, and if I didn't install the cheap disco bushing myself, I may not know any better to not trust it, keep in mind, I grabbed the hammer and rocked it side to side and noticed the slop. Would the trigger be less consistent due to the slop? Most likely yes. Could I tell, or feel it? Probably not. However, I do have a few Mk III pistols, and I am not afraid to take them apart, so I may do a tight bushing/loose bushing test side by side at some point.
One thing I do know, my Target model had a 3.5 # trigger, and I did nothing to that gun but shoot it, a lot!!! Also, I am not certain I love a really light trigger.

Stay tuned!!!
No, the sloppy fit of the hammer bushing is not, by any means optimal. Consider, that a "reputable" aftermarket hammer bushing used for the Ruger Mark III pistols was initially designed to do TWO things. ONE: Replace the magazine disco parts to eliminate the "magazine in/magazine out" routine involved with disassembly and then, TWO: Tighten up the union of the replacement hammer bushing in the hammer, eliminate any, and all of the wobble, that you found, between the hammer bushing and the hammer bushing pin, along with any side to side drift of the hammer bushing while inside the hammer, so that you would gain a much more consistent trigger pull action, and trigger pull weight.

Now, granted, there are some folks who only shoot for recreation fun and who aren't concerned with the consistent trigger pull aspect and are happier than a clam that the lady on the phone talked really, really nice to them. That doesn't make your pistol shoot, or function any better.

The Ruger Mark III can indeed be upgraded to a much better functioning pistol. That's been proven time and time again, here at S.G.W. LLC and from the customer responses I've received who are very satisfied with the outcome. I for one, will surely stay tuned to this thread to see what your final outcome entails. :bthumb:
 
#12 ·
My guess is the sear and spring and a GOOD bushing will bring you near 90% of the way towards a great trigger, for near 50 dollars. The complete kits are near 150 dollars. Only the most discerning shooters will need the extra 10%.

Rich
You're right in how to take a "blah" or "so-so" trigger to a level most people would prefer. I'm glad you're experimenting with different combinations. IMO, that's the best way to learn what each part can do for you.

I have to agree with you that the sear and mag disconnect bushing bring it to the 90% better mark. But I was able to feel a little bit of creep before let off still shooting at little bitty targets when slow and deliberate. I swapped the bushing out for a VQ Mkll hammer bushing. The difference between them was amazing. I have to say that switch brought another 5+ percent to the package.
It took a good bit of convincing to get Indigo to try a different bushing, but the reduced creep is worth it. I'm trying to stay out of the bushing minefield on this thread, but I do have another observation that relates to sears.

A while back, there was a heated discussion between gunsmiths about the best way to get that last 5% of a great trigger. The topic was about eliminating the last bit of creep. So I tried both ways.

In my MKII, I added a breakaway angle to my reworked factory sear. And in my MKIII (with VQ sear), I reduced the depth of the hammer notch. Both have MKII hammers and the same starting position for the sears.

On the surface, they seem to be the same -
1) no pretravel
2) 2.2# pull weight
3) consistent trigger engagement

But they feel very different to shoot. Both are excellent and produce high accuracy. I wish everyone could try both of them side-by-side.

The "breakaway" MKII has a release that is SMOOOOOTH.
The "reduced" MKIII has a release that is KRISPPP!!!

Deciding which is better is like choosing between KFC original recipe, or extra crispy. I really like both!
 
#13 ·
Hello SGW Gunsmith and Test Engineer, I have read many threads of yours, and they helped bring me here. I believe you both have very valid points. SGW, I can't help but agree with your thought that a better fitting interface between sear and hammer would yield a much more consistent result.
I became interested in this when you both did a bearing in the hammer!!! I thought that was a terrific idea and test.

I am starting to think that Ruger did indeed design this gun, to less than optimal results for many reasons.
1) Mass produced and speed of assembly
2) Satisfy the legal team and shut up California
3) Cost reduction

If Ruger wanted to tighten the hammer sear interface, they could have easily eliminated the bushing altogether. Simply bore a 5/32 hole in the hammer and use no bushing. On the right side of the hammer they could have added a "step" washer also with a 5/32 hole and Viola!!, bushing clearance eliminated. Yes I understand that on the Mk III, the bushing now serves to hold the mag disco and spring, but lets go back and look at the Mk I and II and the evolution. The II had no mag disco, yet the bushing was present ( although slightly different).

No, the above paragraph does not make me believe that the factory arrangement is right. It just may be adequate for most hobby shooters. The very experienced shooters looking for the best and most consistent trigger will need to upgrade. I do think Ruger is a great platform to start with though.

The "reputable seller" I spoke about yesterday, has decided to send me another "drop in" bushing, to replace the one I received. We have concluded the inner hole where the hammer pin goes thru is undersized on the small side. As a point of note, this sellers bushing "dropped in" the hammer with a much nicer ( less sloppy ) feel than the Major retailer's fit. I intend to measure them tonight and post the result. The Respected seller's certainly has a larger OD, but I am not sure by how much. If I don't forget, I will bring home my super accurate mic, that is accurate to the tenth ( .0001) . My super quick easy cheapo caliper reads in .0005 increments and probably is not accurate enough for this.

This posting was created simply as knowledge for anyone to use as they wish.

I will update this post as I move along. I want to thank SGW and Test, as both of their posts in the past have bought my curiosity to this point of comparisons.

They both make very valid points and have way more understanding about Ruger Mk pistols than most.

Kind regards

Rich
 
#14 · (Edited)
If Ruger wanted to tighten the hammer sear interface, they could have easily eliminated the bushing altogether. Simply bore a 5/32 hole in the hammer and use no bushing. On the right side of the hammer they could have added a "step" washer also with a 5/32 hole and Viola!!, bushing clearance eliminated. Yes I understand that on the Mk III, the bushing now serves to hold the mag disco and spring, but lets go back and look at the Mk I and II and the evolution. The II had no mag disco, yet the bushing was present ( although slightly different).
The earliest drawings I've seen show the bushing on the wrong side of the hammer:



I've idly speculated about why use a bushing and I suppose there may be a difference in hardening.

BTW, the manual I got with a new T512 in '74 (A100 grip frame) had both grip frames listed, but no indication of the A100 grip frame on the exploded diagram, which is identical to the one above.
 
#15 ·
That is funny, indeed the orientation of the bushing is incorrect in the drawing. I would love to see the Ruger blueprints, with tolerances so I could gain a better understanding of their limits and intentions.

A quick update. The "reputable seller" did indeed replace the "drop in" bushing, as the first one I received was not bored properly. The hammer pin would not go in.
No issues, no drama. Just a few questions. He asked me to test with a drill bit, and report back. Two days later, a bushing appeared.
So far, he gets an "A" for customer service. I have not fully decided on the bushing itself, but being I paid for these, and this is a knowledge bank write up, I will be as honest as I can. I agree with another poster who said that one bushing seller probably makes zero profit. I would think he is making very little, if any profit from these bushings, if he places any value at all on his time.

I did find another interesting observation last night.

I ordered a spare hammer which is supposed to be a new "take off" from a seller on flea day. He must build race guns as he has a lot of take off parts.

Anyway, my "tight fit" bushing, which will not even start in my other Mk hammers actually dropped into this hammer. It was a very nice, tight, almost plug fit, but it did have clearance, as I was able to spin it in the hammer bore without any effort. This tells me ( assuming the seller doesn't monkey around with the parts he sells) that Ruger has a pretty wide tolerance for the hammer hole ( among other things).

If I am correct here, I now understand why SGW and other reputable Mk Smith's will only install the bushing themselves. They want to ensure that the fit is good.

Hopefully in the next few days, I will have time to reinstall the bushing. I will take measurements, and document my observations. Yes I am aware there is info on this subject already, but more info simply adds to the knowledge bank.

I will update us soon

Rich
 
#16 ·
I expect to finish this "study" tonight. One thing that I have realized, that didn't hit me before, is when I am checking the hammer/bushing pin play or slop, I have been grabbing the top of the hammer and moving it from side to side, and indeed there is play. Heck, anything with a slip fit will have clearance, and that clearance will show up as lateral movement. The longer the object, the greater the distance it will deflect.

Then it struck me, in operation, there isn't the same level of side load on the hammer as when I am checking it. Actually, there is very little side load during normal operation. The force originates at the bolt for rearward travel, and from the mainspring thru the strut for ignition.

The strut is centered in the hammer ( unless it loads to one side, as it too has clearance, which is about .004) If you grab a hammer and hold it, and wiggle the tip of the strut, you will see how the clearance ( again .004) translates to tremendous movement at the end. You can measure the tip move with a ruler!!

Anyway, what I am saying, is I am not certain that the hammer bushing clearance is as critical as I first thought. Yes, slop is bad, but I believe some is necessary for Ruger to build these great pistols so inexpensively.

Heck, you can buy a brand new Mk III ( if you find it) for 300 dollars. I just bought a stainless for 368!!

What I would like to do ( if I can figure out how) would be to video the hammer movement in use, or in simulated use, and then watch it in slow motion. I would like to watch a sloppy factory one, and then a nice snug hand fit one.

I am sure hand fitting it will yield a more consistent pull, as the sear/hammer would engage the same way each time.

Of course, I want the gun to be the best it can, therefore, I am doing this research.

Tonight, I am going to install the best of the bushings I have available, the best being the tightest fit. I will post the results of what I can find.

Now, to video the hammer in motion, can anyone think of a method? My thought was to buy one of the "barrel protectors" that are sold on flea day. I am sure anyone who buys it, is trying to machine a Ruger receiver from it. Being it is aluminum, and I wouldn't care about it, perhaps I can cut an access hole large enough to video it in action.

Any thoughts on this? Yes, I realize I am going over the top on my bushing analysis, but I find it fun and interesting. I learn while I do these things.

Thank you

Rich
 
#17 ·
I expect to finish this "study" tonight. One thing that I have realized, that didn't hit me before, is when I am checking the hammer/bushing pin play or slop, I have been grabbing the top of the hammer and moving it from side to side, and indeed there is play. Heck, anything with a slip fit will have clearance, and that clearance will show up as lateral movement. The longer the object, the greater the distance it will deflect.

Then it struck me, in operation, there isn't the same level of side load on the hammer as when I am checking it. Actually, there is very little side load during normal operation. The force originates at the bolt for rearward travel, and from the mainspring thru the strut for ignition.

The strut is centered in the hammer ( unless it loads to one side, as it too has clearance, which is about .004) If you grab a hammer and hold it, and wiggle the tip of the strut, you will see how the clearance ( again .004) translates to tremendous movement at the end. You can measure the tip move with a ruler!!

Anyway, what I am saying, is I am not certain that the hammer bushing clearance is as critical as I first thought. Yes, slop is bad, but I believe some is necessary for Ruger to build these great pistols so inexpensively.

Heck, you can buy a brand new Mk III ( if you find it) for 300 dollars. I just bought a stainless for 368!!

What I would like to do ( if I can figure out how) would be to video the hammer movement in use, or in simulated use, and then watch it in slow motion. I would like to watch a sloppy factory one, and then a nice snug hand fit one.

I am sure hand fitting it will yield a more consistent pull, as the sear/hammer would engage the same way each time.

Of course, I want the gun to be the best it can, therefore, I am doing this research.

Tonight, I am going to install the best of the bushings I have available, the best being the tightest fit. I will post the results of what I can find.

Now, to video the hammer in motion, can anyone think of a method? My thought was to buy one of the "barrel protectors" that are sold on flea day. I am sure anyone who buys it, is trying to machine a Ruger receiver from it. Being it is aluminum, and I wouldn't care about it, perhaps I can cut an access hole large enough to video it in action.

Any thoughts on this? Yes, I realize I am going over the top on my bushing analysis, but I find it fun and interesting. I learn while I do these things.

Thank you

Rich
Dangerous question! :D Good luck in your endeavors. I don't think much of an accurate conclusion will come from the study of just one Ruger Mark pistol and the unique variables that are encountered with that particular gun. But, you will most likely find out HOW to correct any issues for that individual pistol that you find are not to your liking. Over time, I have found that the Ruger Mark pistols do not adhere to the "one size fits all" declaration.
Manufacture of each Ruger Mark pistol includes tolerance allowances for both the sear pin and hammer pin locations, which both those parts pivot on. Tolerance allowance also includes that for the pin diameters, hole diameter of those pivot pin holes. And then, keep in mind that sears have a tolerance allowed for the pivot pin diameter and that those small bores will become a little distorted during the heat-treat process, along with the bushing diameter holes in the hammer. I have found most all of the Ruger Mark aluminum triggers to have an elliptical diameter in the pivot pin hole. That can and has been corrected here by installing a round steel sleeve in the modified diameter of the pivot pin hole. But then the question arises, how many of our good members have the capability to do that, or is it more simple to just replace the trigger?

We do have other members here who have done a GREAT job tinkering with their Ruger Mark pistols and corrected part features not to their liking. A very few of those alleged corrections have been shown to be on the more "extravagant side" and beyond all means of reason, but everybody has the choice to accept, or reject those modifications.

I look forward to seeing your progress and also your approach to how you get things done. Good luck in your progress.
 
#18 ·
Hello again all, and SGW, I always appreciate your thoughts. Although, I do have several Ruger Mk pistols, and other spares to measure, it is a tiny sampling compared to your experience. I read a lot here, and it seems like you know an awful lot on Ruger Mk's .

This project was simply my thoughts and observations. I added this thread, because someone somewhere will read up on the subject, and this is one more point for them to make a decision.

First, I will give my opinions on the bushings. I only am able to compare 2 manufacturers at present.

1 is a national brand. They make many nice products at a reasonable cost.

The 2nd is from a small company that seems to make a few products, and also prices it reasonable.

The National brand bushing was very well made. The cuts were crisp and sharp. There was no discoloration due to heat in manufacturing, and the inside bore ( where the hammer pin goes thru) was nicely machined. No burrs or machine marks on the ID or OD portions. The ID ( using brand new indexed drill bits is .15625) for a plug fit. Plug fit is no clearance or interference. Now for the bad part, the OD of the shank ( the part that goes into the hammer) is .2165-.217. Why do I give a range in the measurement? Because my digital caliper, which is fairly accurate only measures in .0005 increments. It is however accurate beyond that. It is dead on when compared to my expensive Chech made mic. I own a few of these, and if you buy one, please avoid the junk. I have a junk one, but I don't use it for critical measurements, I use that one like a fast ruler. To get to the "tenth" accurately, I use my Chech mic, but I didn't think it necessary here.

My thought is the national brand made the part fit universally. It will fit even the tightest hammer bore.

Yes, it works, and for most people it would be fine. I can't feel the trigger degradation that must be occurring, but I am not that level of shooter. I do have a machinist background, and slop makes me feel bad. I decided not to use that bushing based soley on the OD being near two thousandths too small.

Then there is the "reputable seller's" bushing. I say reputable seller, because that is what he is. His customer service is terrific, and he seems like a nice and helpful person. I agree with other posters, that he makes very little if any profit on this bushing. By the time you start the lathe, package it, address it, catalog it so on and so forth, if he eeks out 2 dollars, it would be a lot.

I am trying to be honest, and objective, but I believe his tooling is worn. The ID bore was undersized on the first bushing. So much so, the hammer pin would not go in. I was able to start it on the "big" end, but a little less than half way in it would bind. I took a toothpick, and could feel the step or ridge on the ID. I measured the OD being I had it, which was .2185-.219.
The seller quickly sent a free replacement. The small end had what appeared to be brown/blue from heat. This tells me the bit is getting dull. He said it was oxidation, which is correct. However, the oxidation was caused by overheat. I realize it is a small part, and can't accept a tremendous amount of heat, but combined with the fact that the pin wouldn't fit and also that the 'fly cut" ( the corner of where the small end meets the stepped big end) was off. When completely installed in the hammer, the stepped end was not flush on the hammer. You could see light, and it would not hold a dollar bill if placed between it and the hammer. This part went into the garbage.

The replacement was better, but not perfect. I could still feel a step, using the toothpick, but the hammer pin went thru. I carefully "sanded" the ID, and the corner fly cut on the replacement bushing. This is the bushing I decided to use. The replacement busing measured exactly as the first one. .2185-.219. It provided enough clearance to spin in the hammer bore.

BTW, the hammer pin, in this gun measured .155, so there appears to be about a thousandths clearance in every bushing design I found, which does include Rugers.

Based on everything I see, I believe , that Ruger's intention was to allow this slop in the original arrangement. Is it optimal? NO. Will it work? YES!! Will it make some casual users happy most of the time? Yes again.

There are reasons that people would want this area tighter than I was able to achieve with the drop in bushing. I agree with SGW in many ways. I now fully understand why he wants to fit the bushing, as opposed to mailing one out and hoping for the best. Each gun will have variances, so there is NO one size fit all ( at least perfectly).
I have also bought a "tight fit" bushing, which measured .220-.2205. Some emery will make this a slight press fit, but I decided to maybe use this at a later date.

My fear with having the bushing fixed to the hammer ( meaning a slight press fit) is the fear of the hammer pin spinning it the frame bore. I believe Ruger also was thinking about this.
If that were to happen, there are fixes for that too, such as an oversize hammer pin.

My pistol had a trigger weight of 2.5 pounds when done. To me, it is bordering on too light. Please note, this was achieved using a VQ sear and spring. I can't help but wonder, how much of the weight reduction is from the sear spring alone? Maybe next time I break her down, I will use the VQ spring with the Ruger sear.
Please note, I am using an inexpensive Wheeler trigger gauge. So the numbers are more representative than exact. The factory arrangement was 4.5 pounds, so I do believe, the trigger pull was reduced by near 2 pounds. This would be mostly due to the VQ sear and spring. Believe it or not, I feel I could easily lower that number by almost a pound, by polishing and a trigger plunger spring change. I don't need, or want a 1 pound trigger, but you may, and that is possible. I would advise against it.

In the end, I find the Ruger Mk pistols to be a terrific design. It can be modded easily and inexpensively. I really like all mine. I will say, I prefer it to the Mk IV, however, I know how to take it apart and reassemble it. If you can do that, I recommend the Mk III or older. If not, then maybe the 4 is for you.

Thank you all for listening. I hope I have added to our knowledge base.

Rich
 
#19 ·
Update shooting impressions with new bushing

Hello all, as an update to end this thread ( again) I feel it important to add some information. The last time I installed a bushing, I found one with what I thought was a reasonable fit. It did not wobble too much, however, it moved freely thru it's intended arc.
I also re-installed the VQ sear at that same time.
I took it to the range yesterday, and ran 300 or so rounds thru it.

I did not become more accurate with the VQ sear. I guess I had adjusted to the original trigger pull, and the VQ requires another adjustment for my use.

I now completely agree with SGW, with one slight additional comment. If you will use the factory sear and hammer, then the bushing fit is not as critical, as long as it is no more sloppy than the factory arrangement.

If you are looking for a great target trigger, then I believe the bushing MUST fit properly. Meaning as little play as possible, while not inhibiting the hammer's movement.

I have noticed, with the VQ sear, that some trigger pulls are lighter than others. I am not a trigger sensitive person, so it must be a considerable difference. I will attribute this to the hammer/sear engagement not being full at that point. Perhaps the hammer is slightly cocked to the side, but the sear grabbed it anyway, but not fully or 100% across it's width.

I post these observations so we all can glean something. I know I have. I will be changing the sear back to the factory arrangement the next time I take her all the way down. I can't appreciate it's lighter trigger, and I can feel the inconsistent trigger pull now. I would prefer a consistent 4.5 pounds, especially knowing it will drop from there when she is well worn in.

This is only my thought. I believe the VQ sear does work, and will help some shooters, especially after the rest of their gun is properly set up.

Thank you and be safe

Rich
 
#21 ·
Hello all, as an update to end this thread ( again) I feel it important to add some information. The last time I installed a bushing, I found one with what I thought was a reasonable fit. It did not wobble too much, however, it moved freely thru it's intended arc.
I also re-installed the VQ sear at that same time.
I took it to the range yesterday, and ran 300 or so rounds thru it.

I did not become more accurate with the VQ sear. I guess I had adjusted to the original trigger pull, and the VQ requires another adjustment for my use.

I now completely agree with SGW, with one slight additional comment. If you will use the factory sear and hammer, then the bushing fit is not as critical, as long as it is no more sloppy than the factory arrangement.

If you are looking for a great target trigger, then I believe the bushing MUST fit properly. Meaning as little play as possible, while not inhibiting the hammer's movement.

I have noticed, with the VQ sear, that some trigger pulls are lighter than others. I am not a trigger sensitive person, so it must be a considerable difference. I will attribute this to the hammer/sear engagement not being full at that point. Perhaps the hammer is slightly cocked to the side, but the sear grabbed it anyway, but not fully or 100% across it's width.

I post these observations so we all can glean something. I know I have. I will be changing the sear back to the factory arrangement the next time I take her all the way down. I can't appreciate it's lighter trigger, and I can feel the inconsistent trigger pull now. I would prefer a consistent 4.5 pounds, especially knowing it will drop from there when she is well worn in.

This is only my thought. I believe the VQ sear does work, and will help some shooters, especially after the rest of their gun is properly set up.

Thank you and be safe

Rich
Rich,

There are a whole bunch of "knacks" involved with getting the Ruger Mark pistols to perform better. Many of those "knacks" have been posted and then parroted by others, but there are a lot of knacks and tricks used that have been learned by the veterans who've been around here for more than just a couple of years.
The hammer bushing, hammer and it's bore, along with the diameter of a well fitting hammer bushing pin are a good start, but there's another equation that the "parrots" leave out, because they don't know about it, so they can't repeat what's been found by others who are more advanced.

It's the same thing with sears, yes, even the aftermarket Target sears. All of the corrections that I make during the "Smoothing & Tuning" service have not been disclosed in print. And, as long as I don't put all the knacks out there, we won't need to read those over and over again by THEE "myna" bird who repeats everything he reads ad nausea. That's just one reason why I prefer to deal with PM's, or emails and phone calls to my shop.
 
#20 ·
Hey Rich,

I'm glad you've been testing things and sharing your finds. Before you write off the VQ sear, keep in mind that the sear has more to do with reducing pull weight than with adding consistency.

Many pursue consistency with trying different bushings. And it's true that minimal bushing-to-hammer slop is necessary to get there. But that's only half the battle. The other half is in minimizing the pin-to-bushing slop. Usually overlooked, and I suspect that may be where your "inconsistent trigger pull" was coming from with the VQ sear.

I tested all sorts of bushings, just as you have been doing. And had similar findings. Then I took the advice of some seasoned RFC members and purchased the Clark Custom oversized bushing/pin set. What a difference! The variability in trigger pull vanished and my group sizes dropped nearly in half.

Sure, you can go back to the factory sear if you wish. It really won't make your pull more consistent though. The heavier pull just masks the variance. And maybe you'd be happier with a heavier pull and there's nothing wrong with that, if so. I just think you should try an oversize hammer pin before you conclude your investigation. That's all.

Let us know what else you try out - if anything. Thanks!
 
#22 ·
Thank you very much for your insights. The thought that the factory sear, with it's heavier trigger pull may be masking some of the inconsistency is absolutely possible, and probably correct.
The factory sear spring, also being stronger may also aid in the complete lock up of sear and hammer.

I did say earlier in this thread, that I was curious how much trigger pull would drop using just the VQ sear spring.

At any rate, the lower weight trigger pull is lost on me, at least on the gun that I tried it on. I need to pay closer attention and see if the trigger pull weight and accuracy tie together for me.

My singular experiments were exploratory, and not to be confused with people who have worked on hundreds of these Mk series guns.

I am aware of the Clark oversize hammer pin, although, I am not ready to take that plunge yet!!

What I have posted were my actual experiences, and associated thoughts. In my younger days, I was an automotive machinist. I routinely worked with very tight tolerances. Tenths were commonplace, when trying to extract power and reliability, so I do have a better than average perspective.

On the "net", you have to read a lot, and make judgement of the accuracy of the statement, and the author's perspective.

I hope I helped. I wanted to share my learning experience. I certainly didn't want to add to the confusion, or be an internet parrot!!

Thank you!!!
 
#23 ·
New info and update

After finishing all my bushings, and running the VQ sear for approx 500 rounds, I have developed a trigger pull which was somewhat inconsistent, and at times less than 2 pounds.
Please note, I am using a cheap direct read gauge. The readouts are more representative of a relative amount. What I mean is I can use it to compare, but I am not sure of the actual value.
The 2 pound pull doesn't feel good to me. I have many guns, and this trigger by far is the lightest.

I made a decision to change back to the Ruger factory sear and spring. The pull after the change reads 4 pounds. So there you go, the VQ sear and spring do truly have a large effect on the trigger pull.

Maybe one day, I will make myself a special target only pistol, and maybe then, I will see the VQ sear as a benefit. Right now, I am very happy with the stock Ruger feel. I also know, that after 5000 rounds or so, the pull naturally lightens a touch. Another thought I had was, being I have several MkIII's, I didn't want to have one that behaved so much differently than the others.

I like tinkering, so changing back and forth is no issue for me.

So there it is, if you are on a tight budget, you can get a very light trigger pull, and remove a lot of the take up by spending approx 37 dollars. You will need a VQ sear, and a mag disco bushing. The rest of the expensive trigger kit parts may refine things, but the most dramatic change will be from these items. I did not test the spring that goes under the trigger plunger and works on the main disco, although I believe there may be a few ounces available there as well.

Thank you again. I hope my information helps someone.
 
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