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  #16  
Old 04-12-2017, 04:12 PM
MacGhillemohr
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Quote:
Originally Posted by douglas34474 View Post
I have mixed opinions on cramming a lot of practice in before you receive proper instruction. Do you know the proper positions and the steady hold factors? Do you know how to find your NPOA? The six steps of making the shot?

I can't tell you how many times I have heard "only prefect practice makes perfect."
I agree, if you're a novice at this, it's probably best to wait. Wouldn't hurt to work on your limberness though!
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  #17  
Old 04-12-2017, 04:14 PM
MacGhillemohr
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Originally Posted by Smoothtrigger View Post
You will adjust it for each position (I don't use a sling for standing,) and they don't give you a lot of time.

I picked up two of the Appleseed slings from their online store for cheap.
One is set for prone, and one is set for sitting.
Saves a bunch of time, and allows me to get ready for the next stage without rushing.

If you order the sling/slings from them you can pick up a pack of targets to practice with. Cuts down on the total shipping.

I've shot 98% of my AQT's with a bolt action rifle (CZ455 Varmint Evolution, 1966 Browning T-bolt, and a Anschutz 1416 Thumbhole.
Shot riflemen with all of them.

Your bigger issue will be your sights, pretty tough with a blade and post. A rear peep would be very helpful.

Also as wrwindsor suggested practice racking your bolt quickly with a loaded mag. It's very easy to short stroke a CZ bolt, and that will kill your rapid stages.

I got to where I was shooting in the 240's all the time.
Surprise gift from my wife. I'm stuck at 246's with the Bolt action's.

It looks like to get a 250 I may have to shoot my KIDD 10/22.


Smooth
My stiff hands just won't allow me to shoot that fast, but I have shot a 242 with one of my CZ's. 249 with a 10/22 with scope.
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  #18  
Old 04-12-2017, 04:23 PM
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MacGhillemohr

Nice!
You should frame up your 249.
Once you do, every time you look at it you'll be inspired to shoot a 250.

Smooth
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  #19  
Old 04-12-2017, 05:41 PM
MacGhillemohr
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Originally Posted by Smoothtrigger View Post
MacGhillemohr

Nice!
You should frame up your 249.
Once you do, every time you look at it you'll be inspired to shoot a 250.

Smooth
I'm always inspired to shoot a 250, just haven't done it yet! This would have been a 250 if the .30 cal rule was used! With my Tactical Solutions 10/22 I average in the 240's.

Last edited by MacGhillemohr; 04-12-2017 at 05:50 PM.
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  #20  
Old 04-12-2017, 08:19 PM
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If you can shoot for groups slowfire, you're most of the way there. The rapid stages get the most worry but the slowfire stages are where you make your money trying to make 210.

If you are set on making score, look at the course of fire for each AQT stage before the event. You don't have to practice it or anything, but it does help to know what you will be asked to do in advance.

Once you get the bolt/breath rhythm down, you'll be set. You should begin inhaling as you lift the bolt, and be floating back up on target as you finish exhaling. In an ideal world, cadence on bolt work should be two beats (rip it open, slam it closed). Inhale as you open the action and eject, exhale as you feed and close it. Crazy simple.

Working your bolt with proper authority adds speed and pretty much does away with short-strokes in my experience, YMMV. I don't think they're much of a risk to begin with in a rimfire-sized action because of how short the raceway is, but that's me.

Also - I didn't tell you this, but if you've got 5-round mags for your bolt gun they will have a small advantage over 10-rounders on the sitting/kneeling stage as the course of fire becomes shoot 5, reload & reacquire NPOA, shoot 5 more. Simpler than shooting 2 & 8, you'll break position once instead of twice.

Nothing wrong with using minor efficiencies where you can find them.
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  #21  
Old 04-13-2017, 05:24 AM
MacGhillemohr
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kennebago View Post

Also - I didn't tell you this, but if you've got 5-round mags for your bolt gun they will have a small advantage over 10-rounders on the sitting/kneeling stage as the course of fire becomes shoot 5, reload & reacquire NPOA, shoot 5 more. Simpler than shooting 2 & 8, you'll break position once instead of twice.

Nothing wrong with using minor efficiencies where you can find them.
I think this is an excellent idea, may adopt this myself!
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  #22  
Old 04-13-2017, 11:02 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kennebago View Post
Also - I didn't tell you this, but if you've got 5-round mags for your bolt gun they will have a small advantage over 10-rounders on the sitting/kneeling stage as the course of fire becomes shoot 5, reload & reacquire NPOA, shoot 5 more. Simpler than shooting 2 & 8, you'll break position once instead of twice.

Nothing wrong with using minor efficiencies where you can find them.
Why would you be breaking position twice if you had 10rnd mags?
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  #23  
Old 04-13-2017, 11:27 AM
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wiwindsor

The specified way to shoot the rapid stages is to load two magazines.
One with two rounds, and one with 8. If you have two 10 round mags then ignore everything below.

For the sitting position (the only one where shooting two five round mags helps).

Get your NPOA, shoot 2 rounds, drop mag,load a new mag, reestablish your NPOA and fire 3 more on the first bull. Shift your NPOA, and shoot 5 on a the second bull.

That requires getting your NPOA 3 times.

With two 5 round mags you get your NPOA on the first target and shoot al 5 rounds, then drop mag an reload with second mag, reestablish your NPOA and shoot the second target.

That only requires getting your NPOA 2 times.

In order to pull this off you must tell your shoot boss that you only have 5 rounds mags (which may be true).

At my matches they won't allow this unless you only have two 5 round mags. (or one 10 round)
If you only have one 10 round mag, then you can't fire your first shot until someone else on the line has fired first.

Both of these methods will give you about and extra 5-7 seconds of time.
That's a significant advantage!

The single 10 round mag approach will give you the greatest advantage.
Shoot bosses always want to accolade your needs, but purposely taking advantage of these methods is not really the way to go.

Smooth

Last edited by Smoothtrigger; 04-13-2017 at 11:31 AM.
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  #24  
Old 04-13-2017, 03:00 PM
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I am very impressed by the scores some of you guys can manage. Mine aren't that high yet.

I have shot rifleman with 10/22, AR15-22, AR (223), and a CZ 22 with aperture sights. Not with a Garand yet but only a handful of attempts.

The advice so far is right on. Use a rear peep, bring a proper sling, and listen and learn. With a bolt there is very little slack in the time allowed so the rhythm and cadence are critical. Know how to operate the bolt quickly and how to change mags in position without looking (both where to pick up from sitting and prone, and of course inserting it into the rifle).

It is fun with a bolt for sure! Once the muscle memory sets in and you are just in the bubble thinking about doing each shot perfectly it is worth the extra effort.
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  #25  
Old 04-13-2017, 03:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Smoothtrigger View Post
wiwindsor

The specified way to shoot the rapid stages is to load two magazines.
One with two rounds, and one with 8. If you have two 10 round mags then ignore everything below.

For the sitting position (the only one where shooting two five round mags helps).

Get your NPOA, shoot 2 rounds, drop mag,load a new mag, reestablish your NPOA and fire 3 more on the first bull. Shift your NPOA, and shoot 5 on a the second bull.

That requires getting your NPOA 3 times.

With two 5 round mags you get your NPOA on the first target and shoot al 5 rounds, then drop mag an reload with second mag, reestablish your NPOA and shoot the second target.

That only requires getting your NPOA 2 times.

In order to pull this off you must tell your shoot boss that you only have 5 rounds mags (which may be true).

At my matches they won't allow this unless you only have two 5 round mags. (or one 10 round)
If you only have one 10 round mag, then you can't fire your first shot until someone else on the line has fired first.

Both of these methods will give you about and extra 5-7 seconds of time.
That's a significant advantage!

The single 10 round mag approach will give you the greatest advantage.
Shoot bosses always want to accolade your needs, but purposely taking advantage of these methods is not really the way to go.

Smooth
Oh! I get it now. Two different targets on the paper. Five rounds into one and five rounds into the other. Mag change while working on the first one unless you have two 5rnd mags.

That's where you were tripping me up.

All good now.
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  #26  
Old 04-13-2017, 04:35 PM
Kennebago
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I try to keep in mind that the AQT was in part derived from a test you'd have shot with an M1903 using 5-round stripper clips. To me, that's well within the spirit of the program (whereas using one 10-round mag, or perhaps a tube-fed semiauto for the sole purpose of gaming the COF is perhaps not, I agree). But there's nothing wrong with using either of those things if that's what you've got to work with.

Semiautomatic rifles are much easier to manage on rapid stages to begin with, and nobody thinks a 10/22 shooter has an unfair advantage on the test (because they don't).

Just my opinion, but I see 5/5 with a bolt gun as a minor efficiency pickup at best. You're really sacrificing NPOA to some degree every time you take a shot with a manually operated rifle. Over the course of a 40-round test, trading one major reacquisition (a reload) for a smaller one (working the bolt) isn't going to dramatically change the outcome.

If you break it down, a semi shooter acquires and checks NPOA three times on Stage 2 (off the drop, at the reload, and at the silhouette shift). He/she presses off shots between checks, theoretically never leaving NPOA.

Even using the 5/5, a bolt shooter acquires or reacquires NPOA ten times with two disturbances being worse than others (first at the drop, and again at the silhouette shift).
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  #27  
Old 04-21-2017, 09:53 PM
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I've shot 3-position CMP-style matches with a rimfire bolt action before.
It was a real handicap, having to take the time to work that bolt and repositon my hand on t he stock.
Having a semi-auto is a huge advantage.

That being said, you "can" do well with a bolt gun.
Just like in a real highpower service rifle match. Some of the guys shooting .30-06 Springfields and Enfields will place pretty high, often turning in the best scores during the slow fire stage at the longest distance.
But they are disadvantaged in the rapid fire stages.
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  #28  
Old 04-23-2017, 04:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MacGhillemohr View Post
I've shot a couple of CZ 452 UL's often for Appleseed, never failed to shoot a good Rifleman score with them. Last time I did it was in January, one with a scope, the other with Brno Sport Sights.

No doubt, shooting a Rifleman score with a bolt action is a good achievement, much harder than with a semi-auto.
________________________________________

I just tried for Rifleman yesterday with CZ 452, thumbhole stock, Basix trigger, Diamondback 3.5 to 10, shooting Eley subsonic hollow points. I started out good but fatigue set in over 12 hour event in Tishomingo, OK. My length of pull needs to be increased on this stock and possibly cheek piece added.

Any tips on practice and equipment would be appreciated.
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  #29  
Old 04-23-2017, 05:43 PM
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Originally Posted by Skeptic2 View Post
________________________________________



I just tried for Rifleman yesterday with CZ 452, thumbhole stock, Basix trigger, Diamondback 3.5 to 10, shooting Eley subsonic hollow points. I started out good but fatigue set in over 12 hour event in Tishomingo, OK. My length of pull needs to be increased on this stock and possibly cheek piece added.



Any tips on practice and equipment would be appreciated.

Excellent - fun wasn't it? And hard :-)

Sounds like you have a handle on fitting the rifle better. No more equipment needed really. Dry fire from the positions. Learn to run the bolt without thinking with as little shifting of right arm/hand and none of the left, and get back to the _same_ position (same NPOA) in the normal breathing cycle. You can close eye during latter part of cycle and open right at bottom of breath to check NPOA and then fire.

Find your steadiest version of each position, not the easiest or most comfortable, and practice until it is comfortable and you drop into it automatically. One of the instructors told us he fell asleep in prone on the line at Perry once - THAT is completely relaxed on rifle, no muscles working at all.

Live fire practice when you can at AQT target or just 1" square aim point for all the positions (multiple targets with similar transitions) are great when you can get to the range. Use a timer, or record a timed sequence with range commands for dry and live fire. If you have a buddy at the range do some malfunction drills too.

Then do it with irons. I think you'll find that with a good peep sight it isn't much harder at all. Trust NPOA more instead of fussing the scope sight picture.

Know your sight adjustments without having to think about it.

Then with a 1903 or Mosin or whatever you have :-)

And remember that only perfect practice makes perfect. All 7 steps and all the position steady hold factors.
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  #30  
Old 04-23-2017, 06:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jimp42 View Post
Excellent - fun wasn't it? And hard :-)

Sounds like you have a handle on fitting the rifle better. No more equipment needed really. Dry fire from the positions. Learn to run the bolt without thinking with as little shifting of right arm/hand and none of the left, and get back to the _same_ position (same NPOA) in the normal breathing cycle. You can close eye during latter part of cycle and open right at bottom of breath to check NPOA and then fire.

Find your steadiest version of each position, not the easiest or most comfortable, and practice until it is comfortable and you drop into it automatically. One of the instructors told us he fell asleep in prone on the line at Perry once - THAT is completely relaxed on rifle, no muscles working at all.

Live fire practice when you can at AQT target or just 1" square aim point for all the positions (multiple targets with similar transitions) are great when you can get to the range. Use a timer, or record a timed sequence with range commands for dry and live fire. If you have a buddy at the range do some malfunction drills too.

Then do it with irons. I think you'll find that with a good peep sight it isn't much harder at all. Trust NPOA more instead of fussing the scope sight picture.

Know your sight adjustments without having to think about it.

Then with a 1903 or Mosin or whatever you have :-)

And remember that only perfect practice makes perfect. All 7 steps and all the position steady hold factors.
_________________
Thank you for the kind reply. As part of my GunSmith training, I will build an AR10 in 6.5 Creedmoor 1 to 8 twist, 20" barrel. I plan for it to be as precise as possible 1/4 to 1/2MOA. I will try Appleseed Marksman with this weapon when completed. I might try marksman with all the rifles I build.
Until then, I will continue practicing with my CZ452.

I missed the scoring of the V circle. Is it 5 points or higher?
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